The never ending 'Post Mortem"

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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Smoke2much » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:03 am

I believe that Stalin would not have let Stalingrad surrender if it was surrounded.


Hitler wouldn't let Paulas and the 6th Army surrender, but they did.  Given time a lost cause will always lose.  The operation to relieve the pocket got within 30Km of the city, if the roles had been reversed then the russian forces would have had as much choice as their German counterparts.

As to my earlier comments about the strategic importance of Stalingrad.....  Had the German Army had the mobile forces at its disposal that it had in 1941 they would have enveloped it and moved on but they did not.  Therefore the Volga had to be blocked using traditional methods and thus Stalingrad had to be taken.

The oilfields were well to the southeast of this area and apparently were not the reason but but rather the prevention of the use of the Volga as a supply line.

In a sense we are both correct, it held meaning because both sides contested it so heavily, if they Germans had bypassed it they would have crossed the Volga on either side and gained access to the oil.  They couldn't and didn't.  Had the city still been called Tsaritsyn I doubt that Stalin would have chosen it as the place to make his stand.

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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Woodlouse2002 » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:36 pm

So a draw then. I can live with that. ;D
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Smoke2much » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:14 pm

Me too ;D
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby WebbPA » Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:33 pm

Nice discussion, guys.

The World at War TV series devoted an entire hour episode to Stalingrad.  It was one of the best in the series. I have it on tape and if you ever get the chance to see it I strongly urge you to watch and tape it.
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Woodlouse2002 » Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:05 pm

[quote]Nice discussion, guys.

The World at War TV series devoted an entire hour episode to Stalingrad.
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Redwing » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:29 pm

I don't know, and I don't believe any of us ever will, whether the Reich could have lasted any significant period longer than it did, even if Hitler had not made the 'glaring' errors and misjudgements that he did.



I saw a program this morning on THC (History Channel) about all the "super weapons" programs that the Nazi's had going....it covered of course the V1 and V2, the jet fighters and the 163 rocket interceptor, long-range bombers (conceivably to hit the U.S.), helicopter development, remotely piloted flying bombs, etc. Probably the biggest danger was their eventual development of  the atom bomb; something that the maniacal Hitler would surely have used to wreak even more devastation on the world.

All that said, I think any malevalent regime that is bent on world conquest is doomed to fail. Germany just didn't have the numbers to do it; they didn't have the manpower or any overwhelming technological advantage for global domination. In those European countries they did conquer, they were always going to be dealing with resentful and hostile populations and resistance....if they'd ever managed to defeat the Russian army, they never could have really secured such a huge country. As for the U.S. and our industrial might.....well, world conquest just wasn't going to happen for the Axis powers.....they just weren't that powerful!
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Woodlouse2002 » Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:17 pm

I think what was being referred to was not the Reich being defeated but a total collapse of the regime that kept the war going. A dictatorship that runs on confusion and squabbles between the lower echelons is doomed to fail before long.
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Redwing » Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:51 pm

I think what was being referred to was not the Reich being defeated but a total collapse of the regime that kept the war going. A dictatorship that runs on confusion and squabbles between the lower echelons is doomed to fail before long.


Huh? ???

I'm not sure I get the distinction you're making between "the Reich" and the "regime"......I think they're pretty much synonymous. I do know that, ultimately, "The Reich", including the Nazi government (dictatorship) and the military that it controlled only collapsed because of Allied military force!
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Woodlouse2002 » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:03 pm

The reich was essentially Germany after hitler had expanded it a bit to encompas all german speaking people. The regime is the Nazi party. ;)
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Redwing » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:13 pm

Hmmmmmmmmm........... ::) ;D

OK Woodlouse, thanks for the explanation!! ;)
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Stratobat » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:05 pm

Interesting debate
Last edited by Stratobat on Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Professor Brensec » Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:26 am

Yes, I read the "Rise and Fall" about 20 years ago. It was very 'heavy reading'. It was also extremely detailed from a 'political' point.

Still on the Russian Front, and more specifically, Stalingrad. I saw the History Channel Doco recently and also have seen "The World at War" series. Both very good Docos, and very much the same. I think because the reasons, at least those generally understood to be the 'primary' reasons for 'the first german defeat', are very much agreed upon by most people who have studied the battle and the logistical and tactical aspects that pertain thereto.

Firstly, there is the late timetable. Definitely the 'primary' undoing of the Germans, which ultimately resulted in the other aspects that have been mentioned. These being:

Firstly, the lack of proper clothing for the German troops and their perishing due to the cold.

Secondly, this time German 'precision' did not help them, as the extremely close tolerance of their equipment, from vehicles to guns, tanks and even the 'small arms' just refused to work. They relied on the close tolerances that they were designed to, and the extreme cold just completely stuffed that.

Thirdly, as I mentioned much earlier, the Germans were always going to be in trouble with their suplly line. Hundreds of miles, with much of their equipment (guns, fuel, food ammo etc) still carted by horses, who couldn't stand up to the winter any better than the Germans, (who ended up eating them, more often than not), much less travel the roads that had be 'quagmires'.

That, coupled with the single railroad that had to carry everything as all the roads became impassable.
On top of that, Goerings promise that he could supply the 800 odd tonnes of supplies required by the 6th army by air. He ended up, on his best day, getting 90 tonnes on the ground. After the first few days of the Luftwaffes pawltry effort, the Germans watched the Russians over-run what pitiful amounts of the supplies that did make it through the Russian AAA, because they lost two of the 3 airfields they held a week before and risked airdrops.

All in all, they really didn't have a chance in hell.

But as I said, but for a few weeks (as in the case of the French and Swedish before them), they were defeated by the Russian winter. (Not taking anything away from the valiant efforts and horrendous losses of the Russians).

Even as late as early January, Paulus could have gotten the majority of the surviving 6th army (some 250.00) to relative safety, through a weak line between them and Guderians forces (only miles away), but Paulus at that stage wasn't ready to defy Hitler.  ;D ;) He'd just been made a 'Field Marshall' (Where would they find a 'Baton'??...........lol)

Seriously though, both sides suffered terribly, in what was surely the 'dirtiest', most attritious fighting of the entire War.
To answer a previous question, more Germans did die from cold, disease and particularly starvation (and suicide, many actually!), than were killed by the enemy.  :(
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby WebbPA » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:17 am

Another problem with the Russian offensive was the western European "Bilizkrieg" tactic didn't work.  In France, Belgium, etc. the Germans encircled huge numbers of troops and cut off their supplies.  In Russia the troops could fall back indefinitely and could never been encircled.
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Woodlouse2002 » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:59 am

Actually the blitzkrieg tactic worked wonderfully at the start of Barbarossa with well over a million russian soldiers surrounded and captured. But of course, that was before stalin let them retreat...
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Re: The never ending 'Post Mortem"

Postby Felix/FFDS » Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:05 pm

Actually the blitzkrieg tactic worked wonderfully at the start of Barbarossa with well over a million russian soldiers surrounded and captured. But of course, that was before stalin let them retreat...


Plus - the Russians could "afford" to lose that manpower, and still manage to counterattack with fresh divisions from the Siberian front.  Since Japan never opened a second front, that freed the Siberian troops.
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