A new WWII question for the New Year

[Woodlouse2002]

The 5-5-3 treaty only served to offend and infuriate the Japanese, which in itself aided in the escalation toward war in the Pacific.

Not really. They didn't have to sign the treaty and in the end they ignored it anyway. It pissed Britain off as they were forced to decommission several Battleships and then they had to redesign HMS's Rodney and Nelson to fit the bill. Just about the only nation satisfied with it was the Americans and only then because they drew the treaty up. In the end it would have never stopped the second world war as Germany was building her pocket battleships and gearing up for invading Europe, which didn't require much of a navy and Japan just built two super battleships and got on with their plans for an Empire in Asia.

[dcunning30]

Not really. They didn't have to sign the treaty and in the end they ignored it anyway.

Not true.

[Hagar]

Even though events in Europe and Asia did have an effect on each other, there was no conspiracy or organized effort.

That might be true but the Japanese must have realised that Britain was heavily involved in Europe & North Africa when they attacked Malaya on December 8th, 1941 - the day after Pearl Harbor. This led to the fall of Singapore on February 15th 1942 - one of the greatest defeats in the history of the British Army and probably Britain

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

Not true.

[dcunning30]

[quote]
That might be true but the Japanese must have realised that Britain was heavily involved in Europe & North Africa when they attacked Malaya on December 8th, 1941 - the day after Pearl Harbor. This led to the fall of Singapore on February 15th 1942 - one of the greatest defeats in the history of the British Army and probably Britain

[dcunning30]

Yes they signed it. I was never saying they didn't. All I was saying is that they didn't have to sign it if they really didn't want to and in the end it made bugger all difference to how they acted.

You're right, but anyway, they did sign it and did become offended and infuriated by it.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

Uhhh, for Japan, the war started in 1932.

[Felix/FFDS]

[quote]
And in my opinion, war in Europe and war in Asia and the Pacific were contemporaneous seperate events.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

One wonders, if GERMANY had not declared war on the US, would the US have "legally" entered into the European War?

[Hagar]

Would Germany's alliance with Japan not have meant that a state of war existed between the two countries without Germany having to declare it?

I don't know the technicalities but I agree with Felix, it wouldn't have made much difference in the end. I suspect that apart from showing support for Japan the main reason was that declaring war on the US made U-boat attacks on American shipping legitimate. That's if war can be called legitimate. It's a funny old do.

[Felix/FFDS]

Would Germany's alliance with Japan not have meant that a state of war existed between the two countries without Germany having to declare it?

Not necessarily.  The Alliance was a defensive one "Whoever hits you hits, me" not an offensive one "I'll hit whoever YOU hit".

Hitler's declaration of war, I believe, was "justified" on the basis that the US committed "agression" on Japan by its policies of economic containment, yadda yadda yadda

[beaky]

I know we're already way off dcunning's original topic, and I hardly consider myself a WWII expert, but having just finished Wm. Shirer's massive The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, I'm reminded by this discussion that I learned a great deal about the Japenese-German alliance from it.  Some might find some of this of interest.

According to Shirer, here's what happened around the time Japan struck Pearl Harbor:
"Japan was the key to Hitler's efforts to keep America out of the war until Germany was ready to take her on..."
"Hitler and Ribbentrop ... stressed the importance of not provoking the United States...By the beginning of 1941 they were exceedlingly anxious to draw Japan into the war... against Britain....Japan should come in 'as soon as possible- in its best interest' (Ribbentrop), and seize Britain's empire in Asia".
 "Hitler paid dearly not only for this assurance (his promise to back Japan in any potential conflict with the US)... but for... not telling the Japanese about his intention to attack Russia..."

 -Then the Japanese signed a neutrality treaty with Russia, and when Germany attacked Russia, despite Berlin's pleas for Japan to attack Russia on its Eastern front, Tokyo would not violate the treaty. Now, tied up on two fronts, Germany could ill afford the US getting involved, but Hitler was confident that even if the Japanese attacked Britain in the Pacific, America would focus its attentions there, not in Europe-

"...it never seems to have occurred to (Hitler).... until very late that Japan... might be fearful of embarking on a grand offensive...against the British and Dutch, not to mention attacking Russia in the rear, until they had secured their own rear by destroying the United States Pacific Fleet."

-as the Japanese tried to lull Washington with new peace talks in order to make their attack more of a surprise, the Germans tried to sabotage the talks, fearing that they'd find themselves taking on the Japanese if America entered the war in Europe. The suspicions were mutual:

"The Japanese warlords still did not trust the Germans enough to inform them of the blow against the US...But they were more worried... that Hitler would refrain from giving his guarantee unless Japan agreed to take on not only the US and GB, but the USSR as well. In this predicament Togo got off a long message to Ambassador Oshima in Berlin urging him to somehow stall the Germans on the Russian matter...Togo's instructions to Oshima on that fateful Saturday, december 6, which are among the intercepted messages decoded by Secretary Hull's expert decipherers, give an interesting insight into the diplomacy practiced by the Nipponese with the Third Reich at the eleventh hour".

"... Hitler did not insist on Japan's taking on Russia along with the US and Britain, though if he had the course of the war conceivably might have been different."
-Togo's message, once deciphered (as news came to Washington that the Japanese Embassy was destroying its codes), caused Roosevelt to say:
"'This means war'.
 "But exactly when and where, the message did not say... Even Admiral Nomura did not know. Nor... did Hitler. He knew less than Roosevelt."

Hitler's reaction to the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor was predictable; he honored his hasty agreement with Japan, explaining:
"'It was... at the moment when the surprises of the Russian winter were pressing most heavily on the morale of our people, and everybody in Germany was oppressed by the certainty that sooner or later the US would come into the conflict. Japanese intervention, therefore was, from our point of view, most opportune'."

Hitler also admired the move, telling Oshima on December 14th:
"'You gave the right declaration of war!   This method is the only proper one.'"

  there was of course the issue of American interference with Germany's efforts to control the Atlantic by force, but:
"There was one other reason... Dr. Schmidt (Hitler's interpreter)... put his finger on it: 'I got the impression that, with his inveterate desire for prestige, Hitler, who was expecting an American declaration of war, wanted to get his declaration in first'."

So Hitler ranted and raved about Roosevelt in the Reichstag on December 11th,declared war on the US, and continued digging his hole deeper...

"With the situation in Russia... not to mention that in North Africa... the thoughts of the German Supreme Commander and his military chiefs quickly turned from the new enemy, which they were sure would have its hands full in the Pacific far away. Their thoughts would not return to it before another year had passed, the most fateful year of the war, in which the great turning point would come- irrevocably deciding not only the outcome of the conflict which all through 1941 the Germans had believed almost over... but the fate of the Third Reich..."
 
 

[TacitBlue]

And now I understand. I never really understood why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, or what they had agains the US, but now I get it. Thanks Rotty.

[Hagar]

I know we're already way off dcunning's original topic, and I hardly consider myself a WWII expert, but having just finished Wm. Shirer's massive The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, I'm reminded by this discussion that I learned a great deal about the Japenese-German alliance from it.  Some might find some of this of interest.

Indeed interesting. That's what I like about these topics. I don't know much about the Pacific war myself & this gives food for thought.

And now I understand. I never really understood why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, or what they had agains the US, but now I get it. Thanks Rotty.

I'm not sure it's the only reason. Here's the official view from the US Navy website. http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq66-1.htm

The road to war between Japan and the United States began in the 1930s when differences over China drove the two nations apart. In 1931 Japan conquered Manchuria, which until then had been part of China. In 1937 Japan began a long and ultimately unsuccessful campaign to conquer the rest of China. In 1940, the Japanese government allied their country with Nazi Germany in the Axis Alliance, and, in the following year, occupied all of Indochina.

The United States, which had important political and economic interests in East Asia, was alarmed by these Japanese moves. The U.S. increased military and financial aid to China, embarked on a program of strengthening its military power in the Pacific, and cut off the shipment of oil and other raw materials to Japan.

Because Japan was poor in natural resources, its government viewed these steps, especially the embargo on oil as a threat to the nation's survival. Japan's leaders responded by resolving to seize the resource-rich territories of Southeast Asia, even though that move would certainly result in war with the United States.

The problem with the plan was the danger posed by the U.S. Pacific Fleet based at Pearl Harbor. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, commander of the Japanese fleet, devised a plan to immobilize the U.S. fleet at the outset of the war with a surprise attack.

[Papa9571]

That and the Japanese fear of being over run by christianity.

And Hagar...

The Yorktown and Saratoga launched the same attack against Pearl Harbor during one set of war games in the mid 1930's. It took the harbor by suprise and the upper eschelon vowed to never let it happen again....