Munich 1938 - Appeasement or buying time?

[Hagar]

[quote]How was Churchill being ruthless?

[dcunning30]

Hagar,

You've made your points well, especially about Dresden.

[Woodlouse2002]

If Churchills decision to send the Royal Navy to sink the French fleet in 1940 wasn't ruthless then I don't know what is. And then there was his suggestion after the war what to do about the german high command and their war crimes...

"My suggestion, is to take every officer above the rank of Colonel, and shoot them."

[dcunning30]

If Churchills decision to send the Royal Navy to sink the French fleet in 1940 wasn't ruthless then I don't know what is.

Wasn't that after France fell and Churchill was concerned that the French fleet would be used against the Royal Navy?

[H]

Wasn't that after France fell and Churchill was concerned that the French fleet would be used against the Royal Navy?  That doesn't sound ruthless to me.

It's common to scuttle one's own ship so the enemy can't use it, anyway. Um, Germans at Scapa Flow ?

[Hagar]

It's common to scuttle one's own ship so the enemy can't use it, anyway. Um, Germans at Scapa Flow ?

It's a long time since I read about this but I suggest the situation was completely different. I don't recall any German sailors losing their lives when the fleet was scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919, long after the Armistice & on the orders of its own commanding officer, Rear Admiral von Reuter. The French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir, French North Africa, was attacked in harbour after an ultimatum from Admiral Somerville. I don't think the Royal Navy had any sense of pride in attacking their former comrades after the French commanding officer Admiral Gensoul refused to cooperate. This is the ultimatum:*

"It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives;

(a) sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.

(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.

If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.

(c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.

If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.

Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands."
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Destruction-of-the-French-Fleet-at-Mers_el_Kebir

These are the basic facts of the situation with a very interesting conclusion. There's no doubt that many people, including the Royal Navy, consider this to have been a very ruthless decision by Winston Churchill.
[quote]In June 1940, the only fleet large enough to have a chance

[ATI_7500]

I've never read it myself (maybe I should) but I don't know where you got that idea. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395925037/102-1142458-5784940?v=glance

It's illegal in Germany.

[Hagar]

It's illegal in Germany.

Ah, thanks Bjorn. I suspected that might be the case.

[dcunning30]

It's illegal in Germany.

I once read the swastika is illegal in Germany as well.  I thought about that in respect to flight sim games modelling Luftwaffe aircraft withswastika's on the tail.  Is there any truth to this, or was this just a silly notion?

[ATI_7500]

I once read the swastika is illegal in Germany as well.  I thought about that in respect to flight sim games modelling Luftwaffe aircraft withswastika's on the tail.  Is there any truth to this, or was this just a silly notion?

Yup, the swastika is illegal here indeed. German repainters/aircraft developers widely respect that limitation, but foreign developers can paint whatever they want on german planes.

[dcunning30]

Yup, the swastika is illegal here indeed. German repainters/aircraft developers widely respect that limitation, but foreign developers can paint whatever they want on german planes.

So if you download a Ju87 from simviation, and it has a swastika on the tail, you're still legal because it wasn't made in Germany?

Also, what about museums?  The museum of science and industry in Chicago has a Ju87 hanging from the ceiling, swastika on tail and all...

Also, the same museum has the U505.  I haven't been in it for some time, though.  Last time I was there, they were building an enclosure for it to protect it from the elements.

[ATI_7500]

Well, showing the swastika in public is illegal here, but as long as nobody of the authorities finds out, you can have it at home. Not sure if there's an exception for museums and historical books.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Sad times indeed.
I beleive that it was Stalin, Woodlouse, who stated that all those above the rank of Colonel should be shot...in fact he thought the whole OKW should be liquidated.
Its good, I think, that such an ultimatum was given to the French, as they quite obviously hadnt the sincerest intention of fighting, I can say that quite confidently after reading the book "For Your Freedom and Ours" (Lynn Olsen and Stanley Cloud) on Polish pilots in WWII- their encounters with French pilots were saddening, with the French pilots drinking instead of fighting.  ::)

Neville Chamberlain did what he thought was right. He wouldn't hav e done it for any other reason. In fact, he truly believed he could have peace.
It is sad that this peace was so short, but really, who's gonna stop a mad man with a combover a toothbrush moustache, evil eyes and a policy called "Lebensraum"? I mean really, lets think here!


A.

[Hagar]

Sad times indeed.
I beleive that it was Stalin, Woodlouse, who stated that all those above the rank of Colonel should be shot..

It was probably Churchill although I can't find a source quoting those exact words. Both Churchill & Anthony Eden opposed the idea of the Nuremburg trials.

The inclination of the British government and of the prime minister, Winston Churchill, in particular, was simply to shoot Axis leaders out-of-hand, as outlaws, once they were caught.

Neither the Soviet nor the American government was happy with the British suggestion. Though both states shared the view that they faced an evil regime, they both favoured some formal process of law, the Soviet Union because it was felt necessary to display publicly the guilt of the accused, the United States because there existed powerful voices in Washington decrying the idea that democratic states should simply murder their enemies. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/war_crimes_trials_01.shtml

who's gonna stop a mad man with a combover a toothbrush moustache, evil eyes and a policy called "Lebensraum"? I mean really, lets think here!

It's all very well to ridicule his appearance but that type of moustache was popular at the time. It might be difficult to understand now but from what I've read about him Adolf Hitler did not appear mad to ordinary German people, many of whom idolised him. Hitler had many good ideas which put Germany back on its feet after years of depression, restoring a sense of pride. He had a very charming side & a hypnotic personality. Apparently most people who met him came under his spell. You have to understand that to appreciate what this was all about.

[dcunning30]

It's all very well to ridicule his appearance but that type of moustache was popular at the time.

I imagine after WWII, the name Adolf probably came into an abrupt disuse.  I imagine there probably aren't very many Adolfs running around in Germany these days.

It might be difficult to understand now but from what I've read about him Adolf Hitler did not appear mad to ordinary German people, many of whom idolised him. Hitler had many good ideas which put Germany back on its feet after years of depression, restoring a sense of pride. He had a very charming side & a hypnotic personality. Apparently most people who met him came under his spell. You have to understand that to appreciate what this was all about.

I can understand that.  History Channel has a show that discusses such a theses that Hitler ended up becoming a drug addict by his doctor.  He had stomach ailments, so his doctor treated that with drugs, he increasingly became fatigued, so his doctor prescribed stimulants for that, and the big whopper, the show suggested he had advanced stage of syphilis, which we all know, if left untreated, can make you go mad.