June 22, 1941 - Operation Barbarossa begins

[Woodlouse2002]

WTF? If any country contributed to a big degree to the decimation to the german ground forces it was Russia.

And an invasion of Europe would have become nearly impossible.

When they joined in they did play a massive role. However I believe ultimately the result would have been the same.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

All the Germans said it at the time- Germany should have joined with the UK and its allies, to take on Russia- because Russia was the real menace...


A.

[WebbPA]

I suppose the UK and occupied Europe did not appreciate the thought of joining their enemy in this endeavor.

The Soviet Union was an Ally because it fought Germany.  The mindset was, "We will deal with that communism/world domination thing after the war" - but we didn't, leading to a 40 year cold war.

[Woodlouse2002]

I suppose the UK and occupied Europe did not appreciate the thought of joining their enemy in this endeavor.

That and the fact that in England the Soviet Union was only seen as a threat after the war and never ever was viewed as a true enemy.

[ATI_7500]

All the Germans said it at the time- Germany should have joined with the UK and its allies, to take on Russia- because Russia was the real menace...

Not all the Germans. And this "teaming up with the Reich against Russia" feeling also came from the island.

[Hagar]

Not all the Germans. And this "teaming up with the Reich against Russia" feeling also came from the island.

It was my understanding that Adolf Hitler himself said that Britain & Germany should "team up" against the USSR. I suspect he still hoped this could happen in May 1941 when Rudolf Hess flew to Scotland - this was before Barbarossa & is the most likely explanation for that flight. Hitler remarked more than once that Britain was not Germany's natural enemy.

Hess hoped that Hamilton would arrange for him to meet George VI. Hess believed he could persuade the king to sack Winston Churchill and to make peace with Germany in order to join forces against the Soviet Union. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhess.htm

[H]

For one thing, Hitler noted the "English" relationship to its Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) origins -- not that Russia was totally void of it.
As already stated, the U.S. was already involved in the war, the major Allied supplier. Germany could not compete with this: even supplies in the areas Germany was taking over were being decimated in the process.
Hitler well knew that Germany's most notable allies (Soviet Union and Italy) were under the leadership of world-power-wanna-be's.
Italy wasn't seen as much of an actual future threat to Germany or the world (many Italians were not supporters of their own leader -- even fewer after his 'partnership' with Hitler, a partnership that committed extra German forces/supplies to areas where they weren't originally intended to go).
Hitler's view of Stalin and the Soviet Union was quite different.  The Soviet Union was definately a future threat. While Germany's resources were totally committed to -- and drained by-- a continuing war, the Soviets could continue to build and refine their resources under a leader who would never remain subservient to anyone else.
Also, Hitler was already planning for open war with the United States. He couldn't maintain world control with two huge, unsubjugated lumps in it (U.S. and U.S.S.R.); with the U.K. (Canada, Australia... all combined ) remaining in the equation, certainly not.
Unable to take the U.K. out of it by force, attempting to ally it -- at least for the time being -- was an alternative by which he might at least take out one definite, major threat.

[Hagar]

Also, Hitler was already planning for open war with the United States. He couldn't maintain world control with two huge, unsubjugated lumps in it (U.S. and U.S.S.R.); with the U.K. (Canada, Australia... all combined ) remaining in the equation, certainly not.
Unable to take the U.K. out of it by force, attempting to ally it -- at least for the time being -- was an alternative by which he might at least take out one definite, major threat.

I was never convinced that Hitler would have declared war on the US if Japan hadn't come into the picture in December 1941. With his forces already stretched to the limit on two fronts I can't imagine he seriously considered attacking the US mainland at the time. He must have realised that showing even a token support for Japan would risk his dream of a Third Reich. Hitler admired the British Empire & was well aware that he wasn't simply fighting a tiny island nation but the whole Empire. Great Britain was really something to be reckoned with at the time & had the most powerful navy in the world. Even if it didn't join him as an ally, coming to some sort of non-aggression pact with Britain would leave him free to take over Eastern Europe which I believe was always his main objective. I'm not sure that the US would have actively interfered with events on the other side of the world. I'm still amazed that Churchill managed to persuade Roosevelt & the American people to settle things in Europe before concentrating on the Pacific.

[H]

I was never convinced that Hitler would have declared war on the US if Japan hadn't come into the picture in December 1941.

Um, like designing an "Amerika Bomber" just for the fun of it (that wouldn't have given us a "wake-up"?); this was begun well before the BoB had even begun. His original thought seems to have been that he could overwhelm the UK home island and the rest of the UK would dissolve or fall in line -- there was no way to maintain any objective with the UK against him.

Sorry -- there's more but have to quit.

[Hagar]

Um, like designing an "Amerika Bomber" just for the fun of it (that wouldn't have given us a "wake-up"?); this was begun well before the BoB had even begun.

Hitler & his generals had no experience of waterborne operations. Even if Goering had succeeded in neutralising the RAF in 1940 it's most unlikely an invasion of Britain would have been successful. If they couldn't cross that small expanse of the English Channel how on earth is it conceivable that German forces could have made any impression on the US mainland thousands of miles across the Atlantic Ocean? Look at the planning & resources that went into the Allied invasion of Normandy in 1944 & success was by no means certain.

The much-vaunted Amerika Bomber project never got past the design stage & it relied on nuclear weapons to stand any chance of success. In hindsight it seems unlikely that Germany would have developed a practical nuclear weapon as it didn't have the resources. I suspect it was just another of Hitler's wilder ideas. Much like the RAF bombing Berlin with a few 500 pounders just to prove they could do it after the first attacks on London. I can't see the vast & powerful United States giving in easily to attacks on the mainland & people tend to fight harder when their homes & loved ones are at risk. Even with air superiority you need troops on the ground to back it up. As Admiral Yamamoto remarked after the attack on Pearl Harbor; "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping tiger and filled him with a terrible resolve."

[ATI_7500]

Even if it didn't join him as an ally, coming to some sort of non-aggression pact with Britain would leave him free to take over Eastern Europe which I believe was always his main objective.

It was actually his own objective. But since France and Britain protected Poland and joined the war, he had to fight them, although I think that France had to be overrun nonetheless, due to Versailles. If he had really planned to attack Britain, he would have ordered his Generals to prepare for an invasion way earlier, and not two months before the BoB.

Um, like designing an "Amerika Bomber" just for the fun of it (that wouldn't have given us a "wake-up"?); this was begun well before the BoB had even begun.

I don't think so. The so-called "Amerika bomber" was either planned in the case that the US joined the war in Europe later on, or research on this bomber had begun in 1942 and not earlier.

If they couldn't cross that small expanse of the English Channel how on earth is it conceivable that German forces could have made any impression on the US mainland thousands of miles across the Atlantic Ocean?

Well, they made a nice impression with things like the "buzz-bombs" and the V-2. If they could have gotten the V-4 into service, and fired a few of them in the direction of New York, it would have certainly made an impression on the US.

[Hagar]

Well, they made a nice impression with things like the "buzz-bombs" and the V-2. If they could have gotten the V-4 into service, and fired a few of them in the direction of New York, it would have certainly made an impression on the US.

That's true. However, the V1 was more a 'terror weapon' than anything else. You could hear it coming & it wasn't at all accurate. Didn't need to be but it did very little damage & it could be shot down by aircraft or ordinary AA guns. All the time you could hear the engine running you were perfectly safe. Might have been different if there were considerably more of them. I read that a large proportion of them failed to launch properly due to sabotage in the manufacturing plants.

The V2 was more effective as you couldn't hear it coming. Still not particularly accurate & more frightening than anything else. Would have been a different situation with a nuclear warhead.

The United States is a completely different proposition. It's a vast country & a long way away from Germany & Occupied Europe. Without a nuclear warhead I doubt the V4 or Amerika Bomber would have been effective. Simply provoked that sleeping tiger.

PS. It's all very well firing unmanned missiles at a distant target but not effective unless the results can be confirmed by aerial reconnaissance or eye-witness reports. It's quite possible that they would completely miss the target & nobody would be any the wiser. There was no CNN in those days & security/propaganda was an art form.

[Scorpiоn]

The only mainland territory of America to be invaded during World War II were the rather small Aleutian Islands by Japanese forces.  This by a force experienced in amphibious invasions, and more than proficient in defense (Later to be demonstrated at Okinawa and Iwo Jima).  I don't know the specifics, but the distance Japan had to travel is nothing foreign to them if past campaigns are of any measure.  Granted, the Japanese were not replused, but rather willingly pulled out.
 As Hagar points out, the Germans faced the ever more frustrating prospect of crossing the Channel, and would have the utmost difficulty in ever doing so.  Somehow reaching North America would be a daunting prospect.  Unless they could somehow launch from Japan, but then logistics would be just as problematic.  How Germany could succeed where Japan fell short in it's own game is beyond my comprehension.
 It's unlikely Hitler truly even wanted to concern himself with America from the start.

[Bombardier101]

Well if Hitler hadn't had rocks up there he would have actually waited, got more troops and machines until a massive force could invade Britain without even declaring war (like with the Low Countries).

remember that Hitler was not the only party to invade Poland.

That's why I hate the USSR! I think that it is inappropriate to hail them as heroes just because they captured Berlin. Some raped innocent civilians as well, thinking of it as revenge. Revenge would be to kill Nazi soldiers, because the Nazi soldiers pillaged in Russia, not the German civilians! Waging war on civilians should be considered inappropiate.

Had the dumbarse Hitler not declared war on the USA...

What an idiot!

WTF? If any country contributed to a big degree to the decimation to the german ground forces it was Russia.

Yeah, but the US and Britain were the big winners in the push to Berlin. The only good thing the USSR did was decimate the German soldiers and reclaim. The US and British soldiers are not that barbarian as to pillage the German civilians in Berlin! The Aussies helped too! Wooh hooh Australia! In fact the Aussies did not do anything barbaric in that war. They never shot one of their own (for deserting etc) and no sources I've seen say they commited atrocities. They were simply hard working soldiers who did a great job against all odds.

And an invasion of Europe would have become nearly impossible.

All the Germans said it at the time- Germany should have joined with the UK and its allies, to take on Russia- because Russia was the real menace...

Absolutely. I mean Germany nearly completed conquest of Russia. So with Allied help, why couldn't they do it?

The Soviet Union was an Ally because it fought Germany

Yes, but bear in mind they were Axis before Barbarossa!

Hitler was the reason they didn't succeed against the USSR. The German soldiers wanted to regroup and have more of their number, but Hitler said no, stay till the last man or something. Oh well, his fault!




Bombardier

[ATI_7500]

Well if Hitler hadn't had rocks up there he would have actually waited, got more troops and machines until a massive force could invade Britain without even declaring war (like with the Low Countries).

If it wasn't for the Channel, Britain would have fallen as easily as the Low Countries in 1940. The only defense there was was the RAF...which was almost wiped out by September 1940.

Some raped innocent civilians as well, thinking of it as revenge. Revenge would be to kill Nazi soldiers, because the Nazi soldiers pillaged in Russia, not the German civilians! Waging war on civilians should be considered inappropiate.

The russian government did to their soldiers what the nazi government did to theirs, namely filling them with hate against the other side, hence the raping and pillaging and stuff. But the russians did all that on a larger scale than the german soldiers.

Yeah, but the US and Britain were the big winners in the push to Berlin.

Were not. They were more or less a better option for PoW candidates.

The US and British soldiers are not that barbarian as to pillage the German civilians in Berlin!

No, they wipe out entire cities with bombs instead...

In fact the Aussies did not do anything barbaric in that war. They never shot one of their own (for deserting etc) and no sources I've seen say they commited atrocities. They were simply hard working soldiers who did a great job against all odds.

Aussies,eh? They've only seen a small part of the war.

Think about it. Most of the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht was bound to the eastern front. With more Luftwaffe planes in the air, the absolute allied air supremacy could have never been created and any invasion attempt would have been crushed.

Absolutely. I mean Germany nearly completed conquest of Russia.

LoL? They weren't even as far as Moskau. And there would have still been Siberia left.

Hitler was the reason they didn't succeed against the USSR. The German soldiers wanted to regroup and have more of their number, but Hitler said no, stay till the last man or something. Oh well, his fault!

He simply stuffed his nose into his Generals' affairs....and was successful with that at first.