Swastika and the Samurai

[Bubblehead]

A while back there was a heated discussion regarding the performance of aircraft used during WWII. I indicated that the Japanese used some of our design and technology to develope their aircraft. However, a couple of weeks ago on the History Channel, there was a program titled "The Swastika and the Samurai". It described the close activity by Germany and Japan which lead to WWII. In this program, it vividly described how extensive Japan (with Germany's cooperation) used German design and technology to develope their own warplanes. It even showed Japanes Stukas and ME263, and the 103? rocket clearly displaying the Rising Sun. The Zeros adopted some of the FWolfe features as well as the 109s mainly the use of it powerful engines. It went on to describe the construction of huge Japanese submarines which were longer than the present boomers and housed 2-3 seaplanes intended to bomb Panama. The Japanese however when they designed the zero opted for speed and maneuverability as opposed to armor which the US and the Germans extensively used. I'm sure the program (Swastika and the Samurai) will be shown again and I highly recommend to for all to see it. Just FYI.

Bubblehead

[Hagar]

I wouldn't believe all you see in these so-called "documentaries" on the Discovery & History channels. I've heard from someone in the know that they are not always accurate. I think the truth of the matter is that the western world underestimated the technical & fighting capablilties of the Japanese. They were influenced by their own propaganda depicting a stereotypical Japanese that was very far from the truth. The enemy is very often depicted in this way in time of war.

People seem to conveniently forget that Japan was on the Allied side during WWI & was an ally right up to the 1930s. Its armed forces were trained by the British & the Imperial Japanese Navy was run along the same lines as the Royal Navy. The Japanese aircraft industry had produced aircraft that had broken speed & long-distance records without help from anyone. Japan had been involved in a bitter war with China since 1937 which meant that its troops & airmen were battle-hardened & experienced by 1941. This is a similar situation to the Luftwaffe refining its Blitzkrieg tactics in Spain before unleashing them on the rest of Europe.

Yes, they had purchased aircraft from other countries & were no doubt influenced by some of the design features. These were often export versions of products that were not successful in their country of origin. I don't believe they had direct help from any western country, especially Germany, prior to WWII. To say that their aircraft or any other weapons were direct copies of US, German or any other country's designs is a complete nonsense. IMHO

After Japan had attacked the US, Nazi Germany declared war on America & thus became an ally of Japan. Technology was undoubtedly shared between both countries & goods supplied under treaty agreements, similar to those between the Allied nations involved in the conflict. However, Adolph Hitler was notorious for ignoring treaties. I have read that some promised supplies from the German side were deliberately delayed & some never reached their destination.

[Stormtropper]

Yeah I watched that too, those Krauts had some very crazy ass weapons.

Well, Hagar has got a point there, but I think that the program was about 95%-98% accurate. And an argument to Hagar, Japan did develope alot of great aircraft during WWII, i.e. Zero, Frank, Oscar..., but during the end of World War II, Japan lacked the raw materials, man power, and the facilicities (Thanks to our crazy ass General LeMay ) to design or make any types of new weapons, so I think that they did get alot of their stuff from the Nazis.

And another thing, the war with China was not a war to battle harden their soldiers, all what the Chinese did was retreat. And my granny tells me that my grandpa (now dead for over 21 years, I'm only 14 so I never met him) told her that while he was in the war on almost every sortie he would take off shoot some Japs and land at another airfield thats about 20 miles more inland than the previouse one because they just got over ran by the Japs.

[Hagar]

And an argument to Hagar, Japan did develope alot of great aircraft during WWII, i.e. Zero, Frank, Oscar..., but during the end of World War II, Japan lacked the raw materials, man power, and the facilicities (Thanks to our crazy ass General LeMay ) to design or make any types of new weapons, so I think that they did get alot of their stuff from the Nazis.

It's undoubtedly true that Japan was short of raw materials even before WWII started. This is one of the reasons it needed to expand its empire by force if necessary. The fact is that Germany was also desperately short of raw materials. It would have been in no position to supply Japan or any other country with large quantities of aircraft or military hardware.

[Felix/FFDS]

The design of Japanese aircraft for both the Imperial Army and Navy was influenced heavily initially by the British (I'm talking immediate post-WW1 here.) British Nieuport and Gloster designs were license built in Japan.  It didn't take long, however, for " original"  Japanese designs to take flight.  Some of the early designs left a lot to be desired, but the machines that machines that made it to the battlefield were - in their time - first class.

However, the designs were influenced by an emphasis of maneouverability and to an extent, long range, over armor/pilot protection, so that you had the Zero, an excellent long range fighter, with incredible maneouverability, but relatively weak protection.

The mid-to late war designs were excellent (Raiden, Ki-100, for example) but too little, too late.  As for the curious Me-163 copy .... The Japanese ended up with only partial drawings, an engine (I believe) but no single example, so the end result was a similar looking, but basically a Japanese look-alike, rather than a copy.

It is unrealistic to generalize that Japanese designs were simply copies of Western designs.  On the other hand, the best Japanese transport was, in fact, a license built DC-3

[denishc]

[Hagar]

Thanks for clarifying that Denis.

[quote]What is true is that as Nazi Germany was facing its end they did share technology with Japan.

[Woodlouse2002]

Now another interesting point in this discussion.

During WWII only three Samurai swords were awarded to German officers. One was awarded to Herman Goering. One was awarded to Erwin Rommel and the Third was awarded to Captain Bernhard Rogge, captain of the raider Atlantis.

If anyone cares then I shall say why.

[Hagar]

If anyone cares then I shall say why.

I care. Do tell.

[Woodlouse2002]

In that case, gather round children and let me tell you a tale..............

Once upon a time in 1940 the Royal Navy made a dossier that looked at how ready and capable its pacific fleet was for war. When it was compiled it was decided that if the Japanise should start a war, the Royal Navy would be in no position to fight them. This file was then sent to Singapore on the Merchant Vessel Automedon. However, In the Indian Ocean, Automedon was attacked and boarded by the Atlantis, commaded by Captain Rogge. While searcing the chart room one of the officers of Atantis found the weighted bag that contained this document. The bag was not thrown overboard because all those responsible for it were killed in the salvo from Atlantis that took out the bridge and radio room, as was her method of attack.
Anyhoo, once this document had been captured, and read, Rogge instantly had it sent on to Japan on a previously captured steamship. The infomation he provided the Japanise made them realise that the Royal Navy was not going to interfere with them for a long time and it enabled them to carry out the attack on Pearl Harbour and Singapore. For this Rogge was awarded a Samurai Sword by the Japanise.

P.s. Atlantis was the most successful of all the German raiders. Between 1940 and 1941 she circumnavagated the earth and captured or sank 22 merchant vessels in the south atlantic, south pacific and Indian oceans. She was sunk in 1941 by the RN Cruiser Dorsetshire.

(Edited for a missing 0)

[denishc]

 One piece of German technology shared with the Japanese early in the second world war was the Diamler-Benz inverted vee inline engine used on the Me-109.  As I remember the Japanese bought the rights to produce this engine in Japan and it was used in the Ki-61, Japan's only inline engine fighter.  The airframe design of the Ki-61 was sound but the Japanese made Diamler-Benz engine never lived up to expectations and suffered from unreliable preformance.  This I believe this was due to the Japanese never being able to master the art of making large cast metal parts, such as engine blocks.  Later in the war, when the Ki-61 was fitted with a radial engine, the design reach its full potential as the Ki-100.
 
 Another interesting fact about the Ki-61, it was given the Allied code name of "Tony" becouse it was thought to be a Japanese copy of an Italian design, the MC.202.

P.S.:  Yes Woodlouse, tell us why.

[Woodlouse2002]

I have told why. Read the post up from yours.

[Bubblehead]

Speaking of the German Raider Atlantis. What happened to the crew after she was sunk by the Royal Navy? Obviously the ship was disguised as a merchant ship and the crew (I presume all were German military personnel) were not in uniform at the time of sinking. Question is: What does the Geneva Convention have to say regarding military people captured while fighting out of uniform? Same as spies and saboteurs?

Bubblehead

[Smoke2much]

If she was flying a German Ensign at the time of the fight then the crew can be treated as combatants under the Geneva convention. I think.

[Felix/FFDS]

Speaking of the German Raider Atlantis. What happened to the crew after she was sunk by the Royal Navy? Obviously the ship was disguised as a merchant ship and the crew (I presume all were German military personnel) were not in uniform at the time of sinking. Question is: What does the Geneva Convention have to say regarding military people captured while fighting out of uniform? Same as spies and saboteurs?

Bubblehead

Actually - except for 7, they survived, left by the British, but rescued by another raider and U-Boats.  In turn, these were sunk and a second rescue operation for the hapless survivors, who finally returned to France.



http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/MaraudersWW2/2Atlantis.html