Why the Red Baron died?

[Professor Brensec]

Interesting discussion gents.

I imagine the 'recent' rehashing of the stories and renewed interest is due, at least in part, to the relatively recent 'study' which we were discussing, regarding the one responsible for the downing of Richtofen. I know the doco I saw was mentioned in the newspaper, and was repeated on Fox about a dozen times over the course of a month (nothing new there .....)

In regard specifically to the 'ramanticising' of the character (Richtofen) and the creation of the 'Folk Legend'. I suppose it's just an example of the population's need to 'have a hero' regardless of whether he was really a very 'nice' or 'noble' person.

For instance, and I mean no disrespect to my English friends, Bader was by all accounts an ignorant, self absorbed mongrel. After having read Brickhills "Reach for the Sky" many years ago, I was very surprised to find out that there weren't very many people who actually knew the man, that had much good to say of him (apart from his courage and obvious skill).

Richtofen probably is much the same 'kettle of fish'. After all, I think it was Boelke that espoused that a good fighter pilot had to have a particular type of 'killer instinct' (which I transate as a nice way of saying "not much regard for anyone else but yourself"). Maybe that's a bit strong, especially in light of the good and kind words you hear people speak of the likes of Foss and Hartman (an especially gentle man).

Maybe my conclusion has to end up like this:

"There are TWO types of succesful Fighter Pilot. One type eventually convinces himself of his own superiority and ends up getting deaded????" (The obvious difference between the two 'pairs' I just mentioned???)

[Hagar]

We always seem to expect our heroes to be nice people & disappointed when we find out that they don't live up to our expectations. Nobody said that a successful fighter pilot has to have a genial personality & very often the best ones were outcasts or misfits. They were obsessed with their job which was to shoot down as many of the enemy as possible. This usually involved creeping up behind them & blasting them out of the sky before their victims knew they were there. Typical hunting tactics & nothing like the romantic aerial chivalry of legend. I found this description of Captain Albert Ball VC, MC & Croix de Guerre - the British WWI ace. Ball was a loner & didn't mix easily with his squadron mates. He preferred to hunt alone & often went off on his own early morning or evening missions. He was just 20 years old when he died in combat in May 1917.

Considered an only average pilot, he began his fighting career in May 1916. At first he concentrated on ambushing poorly defended two-seater German planes.

With his confidence growing, Ball began to make single-handed attacks on German planes flying in formation. His preferred position was a few yards directly beneath his opponent who he would shoot by tilting up his single wing-mounted Lewis gun.

Brave as he so evidently was, Ball was not a personable character. He was humourless and devout, convinced that killing Germans was God's will. Off duty he would play Schubert's Unfinished Symphony on his violin, tend his private vegetable garden or practice with his Lewis gun.

Flying a Nieuport 17, Ball supported the offensive at the Somme. By the time he was sent back to England in October 1916, Ball was credited with thirty victories.

Appointed flight commander in No. 56 Squadron, Ball began flying the recently developed S.E.5. On the morning of 6th May 1917, Ball brought down a Albatros D-II. Later that evening he was seen in combat with a German single-seater. The pair crashed in deep cloud and Ball's body was later found in the wreckage. By the time of his death, Ball, who was only twenty years old, had won the Victoria Cross, the Military Cross and the Croix de Guerre.

[Felix/FFDS]

For instance, and I mean no disrespect to my English friends, Bader was by all accounts an ignorant, self absorbed mongrel. After having read Brickhills "Reach for the Sky" many years ago, I was very surprised to find out that there weren't very many people who actually knew the man, that had much good to say of him (apart from his courage and obvious skill).

Side note - while I would prefer to envision the "hero" fighter pilots as consumate gentlemen (I believe that by all accounts, J. E. Johnson was such), my opinion of Bader is "clouded" by the first hand impressions of one D. Attrell who had several (?) encounters with him.

[RichieB16]

As a student of this period you will know that in reality it was far from romantic. At one point the life expectancy of a pilot was measured in days rather than weeks. They had no parachutes as the higher authorities in their wisdom suspected them of abandoning their aircraft instead of fighting, virtually accusing these brave men of cowardice. Many pilots carried a revolver to use on themselves if the aircraft caught fire as it very often did when hit. This must have been a terrible death.

Oh, it was very far from romantic-but thats how it is percieved today and when I was very young, thats how I thought of it (and how my original interest was originally created).  If I remember right, the only people who were allowed to have parachutes were the operators of observation ballons (since they really couldn't defend themselves).  The thought of not allowing pilots to have parachutes always bothered me, but I suppose it seemed like the right idea at the time.  

I wasn't aware that pilots carred pistols to use on themselves if their plane caught fire-I guess I learn something new everyday, but it doesn't supprise me.  The only things I had heard about was pilots jumping out of their planes and falling to their death instead of burning.  An American ace who volunteered and joined with the French early in the war (Raoul Lufbery) met a simular end.  His Nieuport fighter caught on fire and witness saw him jump from his plane (trying to land in a nearby river as his altitude wasn't very high)-unforunately he missed the river and was killed when he hit the ground.

I have read that the pilots llife expectancy was measured in days not weeks.  But, this is not only attributed to aireal combat.  During WWI, many were killed due to accidents and structural failure due to bad design.  I have read different statsticts on this and some say that as many people were killed  by accidents and alike than were killed in combat (I don't know if I believe that is true) but there were many more accidents that most people realize.

He regarded aerial warfare as an extension of his love of hunting. He's the only combat pilot I've read about who kept a tally of his kills, took trophies to hang up in his home & had silver cups made to celebrate them.

In a book I have titled Aces High by Alan Clark (a good book with lots of picutres  ;D) which has a lot of interesting information about the aces.  It has a quote by von Richthofen which I thought showed his true feeling about aireal combat, he stated that "When I have shot down an Englishman my hunting passion is satisfied for a quarter of an hour."  To me, this shows that he looked at if as he was hunting an animal.  

He also went souvenir hunting after he had shot down the a plane.  Really, the only notable kill he ever had was when he shot doen a British ace named Lanoe Hawker early in the war (von Richthofen flying a Albatros D.II and Hawker flying a DH.2-I wonder who had the advantage   ).  Anyway, this was the first plane he got one of these "souvenirs" from, he went out and found the wreck and took the machine gun from it and hung it above his door.  He claimed he did it because of the great fight Hawker put up (like if it was sport) but I think it was just a trophy.  Here is a photo of his living quarters (out of the same book).  Notice the serial numbers from planes on the wall and the light.

This is another misconception, especially in the US. Baron is a long way down the list of Royalty. I would describe him as an insignificant member of the lower aristocracy. What we would call an "upper class twit" in this country.

Yeah, I think I chose the wrong word to discribe his status.  I was looking for for a more noble meaning than royality.  But, I do agree that most people in the United States think he was the son of the king or something simular.  

Well, this is becoming a fun discussion.  I look forward to discussing this more...but if I don't leave now I'll be late for my first day of school.  

[Hagar]

Side note - while I would prefer to envision the "hero" fighter pilots as consumate gentlemen (I believe that by all accounts, J. E. Johnson was such), my opinion of Bader is "clouded" by the first hand impressions of one D. Attrell who had several (?) encounters with him.

Bader often visited Shoreham when I worked there in the early 1960s. He was employed by Shell & flew the company Gemini. From comments I heard at the time I gathered he was none too popular. I was never introduced as he wouldn't have wanted to know me.

[Felix/FFDS]

Bader often visited Shoreham when I worked there in the early 1960s. He was employed by Shell & flew the company Gemini. From comments I heard at the time I gathered he was none too popular. I was never introduced as he wouldn't have wanted to know me.

I stand corrected.....

[RichieB16]

Ball was a loner & didn't mix easily with his squadron mates. He preferred to hunt alone & often went off on his own early morning or evening missions. He was just 20 years old when he died in combat in May 1917.

Just a side note and an interesting fact.  Although the death of Albert Ball was also shrouded in some mystery (due to the heavy clouds which didn't allow any outside witnesses) the man that he was in combat with was a German ace named Lother von Richthoven (Manfred's little brother who was also a high "scoring" ace, he survived the war with 40 kills).  von Richthoven was credited with the victory over Ball.

[Hagar]

[quote]
Just a side note and an interesting fact.

[Professor Brensec]

The one thing that comes to mind whenever there is mention of Bader, is the apparently 'very true' account of his disallowing (I'm not sure he was actually able to order him, but.......) his Batman in Colditz from being repatriated when he had the opportunity, because Bader decided he 'needed' him there.

(Probably because nobody else in the entire Castle would have been willing to help the mongrel).

I recall reading an account by his Batman (forget his name, sorry). It was not long after the war and the Batman had just returned to England and had occasion to speak to Bader on the telphone (I think). Rather than thank the man for his years of loyal service, which included helping him bathe (lifting him in and out of the tub) and toilet himself etc, all Bader could do was tear strips off the poor bugger for not remembering to bring one of Baders belongings with him (in the excitement of being set free and returning home).

I wonder why Paul Bricjhill never put these things in his book??...........................

[Hagar]

We seem to have strayed a little off-topic.
I have no wish to do a demolition job on Douglas Bader's reputation. Whatever I or anyone else might think of him he was obviously a very brave & determined man. I think the public impression of him has more to do with Kenneth More's brilliant & sympathetic portrayal of him in the film "Reach for the Sky" (which Bader himself heartily approved of) than what he was really like. This does go to prove my point that the media is often responsible for creating these legends.

Speaking of legends, I had the honour of meeting my boyhood hero Squadron Leader Neville Duke quite recently. Now in his 80s he's just as I always imagined him, a true officer & Gentleman with a capital G. http://www.gapan.org/committees/trophies/02aoh.htm