The automatic 'machine guns' - WWII

[Professor Brensec]

yes I'm still around. been in and out of hospital though> ozzy knows the story surrounding my last two weeks absence, so because my whole body is so sore including arms and hands I'll leave it to him to explain [if there's any explanation needed.........lol ;] excuse typing my hands are hurting badly - no caps and no punctuation - soory

ill make it a short one because i'm almost collapsing as i type this

i saw another of my history channel docos. one about the development of the 'trench guns' as they were caled.
1st they wen thru the german mg models and then the us 'grease gun', then the sten and the good ol aussie 'owen gun' mwhich could fire underneath muddy water!

has anyone seen this doco. comments re development of auto weapons during the war - aslo referenc to the larger machine guns of wwi.

[HawkerTempest5]

Good to see you around Prof, this place is not quite the same without you pal Hope you get well soon.
I've not seen this show, but I remember seeing a show called the story of the gun on History that had an episode about Machine guns. Can't remember too much about it now, but the one thing I did find out was that B.A.R. (as in the WW2 US infantry machine gun) stands for Browning Automatic Rifle. I didn't know that Sad but true!

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

Good to see you back Professor

Sorry did not catch that series....."trench guns"

Get well soon

Cheers....Happy Landings....Doug

[Hagar]

Hi Brensec. Hope you recover soon.

The only machine gun I know anything about is the good old BREN gun. I could strip one down & reassemble it blindfold at one time athough I can't say I actually fired one.

The BREN gun was chosen in 1938 by a War Office Committee as the successor to the Lewis gun. One of the designs put forward to the committee was the Czech zb/26, a gas operated, magazine fed, air cooled LMG. The Czech town of Bruno, home of the zb/26 lent its name to the BREN (Bruno Enfield). It seemed ideal for use by the British Army and so was accepted. The only modification required was the re barrelling and the curved magazine required to allow it to fire the rimmed 0.303 SAA ball round rather than the 7.92mm Mauser. Some have even said that the hardest adaptation required for the BREN to go into service was the conversion of the plans from metric to imperial.

The soldiers of the British Army found the BREN to be a reasonably light, reliable and accurate weapon that was easy to maintain and had a good rate of fire. The only real problem was the magazine. The zb/26 had been designed to take the rimless 7.92 mauser round, when the 0.303 round was used, the magazine had to be loaded with the rims one in front of the other to prevent stoppages. The problem with this was if the Magazine was loaded in a hurry a round might be loaded incorrectly resulting in a stoppage. On the other hand, fixing a stoppage on the BREN was relatively simple:

1. Remove Magazine
2. Smack the magazine on a solid surface, HARD!!!
The BREN saw service in the British Army in 5 varieties:

MK1 and MK1*M, a Canadian version, the only difference between this and the MK1 was the butt shape (both of these weapons were in service by 1939)

MK2 which was used from 1943 onwards

MK3, a lightened version for use by airborne troops, used from 1944

MK4 used from very late 1944 and after the war it was re named the LMG and was still in service in the 1970's

http://www.wwiitech.net/main/britain/weapons/bren/

[Woodlouse2002]

The Bren gun is the best LMG ever made. And I think this is proved by the fact that converted to 7.62 it is still in use today.

The US Grease gun is what the yanks made after we let them have a gander at the Sten. In my opinion its a horrible weapon. Why use one when you make Tommy guns?

As for heavy machine guns, I think the prize must go to the Lewis gun. That thing could fire continuosly for 72 hours and far better than the Maxims it was based on and facing.

[Felix/FFDS]

The US Grease gun is what the yanks made after we let them have a gander at the Sten. In my opinion its a horrible weapon. Why use one when you make Tommy guns?

For the same reason the Sten gun was made.  The Thompson was heavy, and made out of machined parts.  The Sten/grease guns were mostly stampings.

As for heavy machine guns, I think the prize must go to the Lewis gun. That thing could fire continuosly for 72 hours and far better than the Maxims it was based on and facing.

I always thought of the Lewis gun as a "light" machine gun, vs the heavier Maxim and Vickers guns.  Perhaps you meant to say the "Vickers" guns?

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

I always thought of the Lewis gun as a "light" machine gun, vs the heavier Maxim and Vickers guns.

[SilverFox441]

Having fired the Sten...I can fully attest to it's cheap construction.

Best LMG to my mind was/is the German MG42.

Just now being retired by the US military...of course the "redesign" is called the M-60 in US service.

[Professor Brensec]

Thanks for the 'get wells' people.   Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Alot better today actually. Thanks.

The apparent problem (and only problem) with the Thompson, which had been made pretty much in it's original form since, I think 1921, was it was so expensive. The grease guns could be made for a literal 'fraction' of the cost. That's why you generally only see Lt, Cpt or higher with a Thompson during WWII.  ;)

They apparently were an extremely reliable gun until they got 'crap' in them, which is a silly design for war. But then they weren't really designed for that specific purpose, according to the Doco.  8)

One thing I wasn't aware of, that the doco opened my eyes to, is that the Thompson could be 'switched' to 'semi-auto' firing. This apparently made it a very good weapon, with the barrel being longer and better rifled than virtually all other 'machine gins'. It was basically a rifle then, except for the cartridge.  ;D

It was also handy that the Thompson and the standard side arm (Colt 45 Semi Auto) used exactly the same cartridge, too. I can't imagine getting hit at close range (20 metres or so) with about 6 or 8, 45 cals!!  :o

Anyway, apparently the Thompson, was the first of it's kind, or at least the first to be adopted as a Military weapon. Don't recall which it was. maybe both.

I also didn't know that the mags came in 20, 30 and 50 rounds. The 50 being the 'round type', which was actually used during the war, although you don't see them in the war movies, or in WWII footage, either.

Very interesting.  ;D

[BFMF]

Hi Bren, good to see ya again

I also didn't know that the mags came in 20, 30 and 50 rounds. The 50 being the 'round type', which was actually used during the war, although you don't see them in the war movies, or in WWII footage, either.

In the newest Pearl Harbour movie at one of the airport scenes where a bunch of people grabbed weapons and started shooting at the enemy aircraft, I believe Ben Aflek had a Tommy gun with one of those round magazines. I could be wrong though

Btw, what kind of machine gun did Tom Hanks use in the movie 'Road to Perdition'???

[Woodlouse2002]

The 50 and 100 round "Drum" magazines were probably a bit cumbersome in war time.

Best LMG to my mind was/is the German MG42.

The only good thing there is about the Mg42 is that its light weight and has a high rate of fire (1200RPM). However, the ammunition only came in 50 round belts. Which meant reloading every 2.5 seconds. Then with such a high rate of fire you have a barrel thats going to over heat very rapidly so out of 1200 rounds only the first 200 or so are going to be of an use at all. I.e. going anywhere near the target. I would not rate the Mg42 as the best there is/was.

Whats more the M60 is not a modification of the Mg42. The M60 only uses the same feed mechanism as the Mg42. If the M60 was a modification to the Mg42 then the M60 would have been a good weapon from its outset.

[Felix/FFDS]

I don't know if it's still in use, but I believe that the MG42 was designated MG1 and used by the (modern)  German Army in NATO 7.62mm, and probably other European NATO countries.

[Professor Brensec]

There's a site called "Encyclopaedia Brittanica - Normandy". A great site that, among many other aspects of the D-Day campaign, covers a few facts and figures about the campaign itself and also figures etc for the entire war.
I love the live news reporter (even the yank accent) when your log in. Hit this and have your sound on: http://search.eb.com/normandy/

One I recall is the number of .50 calibre heavy MG's ordered (or delivered) to the US Army from 1942 to 1945. It was in the order of 685,000.

Of course, this obviously includes all those fighters and bombers that had 6, 8 or 10 each, but still alot of Heavy MG's, in any event.  ;D

[ATI_7500]

T
I would not rate the Mg42 as the best there is/was.

I would. I've talked to a German Machine Gunner who fought in Italy and Russia. He said that the MG 42 was a great iweapon compared to the earlier MG34.  You could fill in a ton of sand and that thing would still shoot. As for the ammunition belts,I'll ask him,when I see him the next time.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

I would. I've talked to a German Machine Gunner who fought in Italy and Russia. He said that the MG 42 was a great iweapon compared to the earlier MG34.