Simviation Forums

Friday afternoon I was stacking hangars when I saw something interesting:  A Baron on final followed by a Stinson closely.  The Baron does not land, but flies the upwind leg untill about the 2500ft mark and turns right crosswind (is a right hand pattern here at KAAO), then downwind and lands after the Stinson.  Once they both landed, the Stinson pilot got out and started a "discussion" with the Baron pilot which turned into an all out screaming match, leading to such phrases as "well I've been a customer here since 'x'",  and so on.

Heres how I broke it down:

The Stinson was doing touch and goes and flying the pattern correctly, however despite having a radio, was not making radio calls, although not being required to make any calls.

The Baron was flying IFR in VFR conditions, and entered from the northeast.  He said that ATC reported no traffic, however he is still responsible for collison avoidance once ATC services are cancelled (and really even before).  He made a bogus pattern entry, although not required to cross over midfield.

As the Baron entered the upwind leg, or a false final, the Stinson was also about to turn final, but had to make a 360 turn to avoid the Baron.  The Stinson pilot saw the Barons move as showboating, and the Baron saw the Stinson as being an inconsiderate putknocker.

Although both pilots weren't doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing, I have to lay blame on the Baron for this near miss.  If he would have entered the pattern by crossing over midfield, the Stinson would have been no factor.  What do you guys think?

All the time while they were arguing I was standing behind a Citation laughing my ass off!  They are both real jerks as customers.

Did the Baron pilot call his upwind leg? I don't see how it would have been a problem if the Stinson pilot knew how the Baron was making its entry.
He would have looked out for the faster plane and extended his downwind  a little, had the call been made and received at the appropriate time (five to ten miles out). It seems the Baron never made any call prior to pattern entry- a very unwise practice, especially if you're not doing the "normal" entry (45-degree entry to downwind leg).

The other key issue is that if you must fly an upwind leg, don't fly the runway centerline... you really should be offset by about the same distance as the downwind, IMHO.
Or better yet, if you don't want to cross over and make a teardrop for a 45, etc. just fly upwind a mile or two parallel to the runway and enter on the crosswind... my preferred method for entering from downwind of an airport.  

This is one of those cases where both pilots are montoring CTAF, but both is too special to make a radio call.  If everyone would just talk, a lot of problems would be solved.  If both are just listening, but neither is talking, who has situational awareness?

[quote]Did the Baron pilot call his upwind leg? I don't see how it would have been a problem if the Stinson pilot knew how the Baron was making its entry.
He would have looked out for the faster plane and extended his downwind

This is one of those cases where both pilots are montoring CTAF, but both is too special to make a radio call.  If everyone would just talk, a lot of problems would be solved.  If both are just listening, but neither is talking, who has situational awareness?

Much agreed. I was doing pattern work in a Citabria at a small field. I was the only one the pattern at the time, with a Ryan on the ramp starting up. Another aircraft called entering the pattern as I was turning crosswind to downwind and asked if the Cub in the pattern was on the radio. I said I didn't know about a Cub, but I was a Citabria and behind him. He than said he'd circle and take #3. As he turned off I saw there really was a Cub in front of him that entered the pattern without a call. After all this fuss the Cub finally made a brief base to final call. As you said, he thought he was too special to have to make radio calls in the pattern. But he had no problem chatting with the guy in the Ryan a few minutes later about how he was interested in buying one. This went on for several minutes, preventing myself and the other aircraft from making position calls.

If you're flying an older airplane and don't have a radio, I don't have a problem with that. But if you've got a radio, especially if you know other people are in the pattern, use it!

Addendum:
I just remember another recent flight where lack of radio calls could have been even more deadly. I was approaching an airport where skydivers operate out of. I was monitoring their CTAF to make sure no one was dropping. I didn't hear anything and continued on. As I got within a few miles of the airport, I spotted some divers coming under chute. I immediately turned away and called on CTAF to ask what the status of the divers was and got no reply. I then looked at the chart and double checked I was on the right frequency. I called again with no response. I continued on my way, wondering if maybe the chart had the wrong frequency or something to the effect. But not to long later I did hear the jump plane making a pattern call. I don't know why they didn't call dropping the jumpers or respond to my calls, but if I hadn't been looking or if they weren't under chute, I could have easily hit a jumper.

he called one mile out, didn't say anything as to how he was entering

Now that's just stupid. Why call at all when you aren't going to state intentions? And why wait until you are a mile out, which is about 30 seconds with that airplane?
Reminds me of the time a Bo pilot (if it's not a twin, it's a Bonanza, or so it seems) called "3 miles south" at 47N when I was on left  downwind for 25.
 No intentions, other than landing on 25. I checked over my shoulder for him entering downwind,didn't see him, figured "he's hot, but probably still out there, or descending on a 45". I happened to look right before turning left base, as is my habit, and there he was- dropping like a rock onto the base leg, with everything hanging out, from above TPA!!! I wanted to smack him...  >:(  Had I not looked up and right at that moment, I may very well have turned in such a way as to get into his blindspot, and him into mine. We know how that works out.

I don't care that his approach was nonstandard; I just wish he'd given us a heads-up. He also called "clear of the runway" as soon as he started braking... ... fits the profile, doesn't it?

If you're flying an older airplane and don't have a radio, I don't have a problem with that. But if you've got a radio, especially if you know other people are in the pattern, use it!

And use it properly!!  >:(

Hehe...Slap time