Simviation Forums

I thought airlines were supposed to make sure their bottles were full before takeoff.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/503834.html

How can this happen? And how can the tanks be empty? I don't think the tanks would be empty if no one uses them. Can't the emergency masks be lowered for just the one person? There are a lot of questions that need to be answered for this.

How can this happen? And how can the tanks be empty? I don't think the tanks would be empty if no one uses them. Can't the emergency masks be lowered for just the one person? There are a lot of questions that need
to be answered for this.

Lots of questions to be answered. Unfortunately not really. Fire extinguishers, first aid kits, torches, megaphones, an excess of life jackets and smoke hoods for the crew are the only things that you have to legally carry. O2 for the cockpit crew naturally has to be present. This is generally in a bottle and only for cockpit use. What is referred to in this article is portable O2. Now if the bottle is fitted it has to be full, if it is not full and cannot be refilled or replaced for what ever reason, it has to be removed from the aircraft and entered into the MDDR/HIL. The fact that two of the bottles where empty brings specific questions as to the actions of the crew in pre-flight cabin checks and the refusal to give O2, nothing more. This person would have ended up in the same state had the cabin crew reported the bottles as empty and they where removed. It is a cold way of looking at it, but that's that way it is.
Another thing that is not clear in the article is what sort of aircraft this was. It States AA, but that does not indicate the aircraft type. If it was a "larger" aircraft type, then I would have though that there would be more than two portable O2 bottles. The company that I work for has a  minimum of four bottles on each aircraft and that is just for a 737. As for the emergency mask question, If I had been on the aircraft, then yes I could have done it, as could any maintenance tech. The only way to have done it would have been to let all of them down. This poses a couple of problems. Regardless what you tell the passengers, there will always be the f#ucking morons who would have donned the masks for what ever reason. Secondly, the PAX masks have a run time of about 12 minutes when pulled and activated. This person would have had to move seats every 12 minutes or so, but at least they would have lived. For my money, I would have dropped then masks and lived with the maintenance problem (inspection/replacement, and re-stowing the masks..................Somewhat better than the subsequent headlines and regardless of regulations  the inevitable court case $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Lastly passenger that have to have O2 as a way of life, have to contact the airline before hand (ticketing) and a special portable O2 bottle will be waiting for them at the aircraft.  

Matt

PS with my company each aircraft has the following extras that are not compulsory;
Doctors kit (For doctors use ONLY, just in case we have a doctor as a passenger on board and you would be surprised how often it is the case.)
Portable O2 front and rear
Defibrillators. Air Berlin was the first airline in the world to make them standard fit on our aircraft . Crew fully trained in use. Again you would be surprised how often the are used.

PPS Not a good PR week for AA. Two emergency landings days apart and a dead PAX
 

The disease you refer to expat is called Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and is usually associated with smokers. You have to be very careful with COPD patients and using defibs. They can go up in smoke.

O2 bottles that us first aiders in the red cross use cost around

[quote]O2 bottles that us first aiders in the red cross use cost around

Alas Matt is right, it all comes down to the regulatory body. However I'd be surprised if it wasn't in the regs about the oxygen........

Cost is not the question. Legal requirement is the overriding point. If it is not a legal requirement, how can you sue. The FAA set the limits, not the airlines.

I'm sure some enterprising lawyer will figure out a way. Quite frankly I'm surprised it isn't a requirement.

The FAA being the collective of cowards and lawyers they are I'm sure they've covered their bottom over the O2 bottles. So AA are about to get a legal enema methinks... I'm just trying to look up the regulation at the min

Well I am very surprised it isn't a requirement. Oxygen is the next most basic thing we carry after a standard first aid kit. If it isn't a requirement I'm sure they could sue for negligence; it should be easily foreseeable that a person may need oxygen up there. Oh well I guess it takes a death to get things right.

After a big discussion at work, we finally found the answer to the question of must/must not and how much.

The following is for the 737-800

There are in general 4 bottles fitted. There must be one available to each flight attendent to a maximum of 50 passenger. One bottle from the four may be U/S for a period not exceeding three days. Minimum bottle pressure of 1500psi. This is a legal requirement  I stand corrected on the legal part that I wrote about earlier. It would appear that AA have potentially a very large legal bill on the horizon.

Matt

Wow the SimV house of Law is taking shape already.



Still this story really surprises me. I wounder what it was really like on the plane when this all happened.

News seems to be backing out of this one. Now they are saying that the woman's cousin said the bottles were empty, the airline is saying that they were not.

i work with individuals close to this case.

According to the MD on board the emergency equipment was functioning properly.

The relative of this woman is a lay person and has probably not been trained on the use of the portable fibrillation system. the system will NOT fire if it detects a heart beat.

according to the doctor, heart beats were detected by the device and it would not authorize a charge.

the doctor said something like "It wont allow a charge." which the relative on the flight assumed to mean the equipment was broken or not working properly, when in fact it was.

i dont usually side with the evil giant corporation but in this case im going to have to do just that, the MD said the stuff was working and tried to save the woman... sometimes it is just your time to go.

I hear these stories every day from relatives who are in the medical field and they always end with "we did everything we could do" or "there was nothing we could do for her" or "sometimes it is just your time to go"

i work with individuals close to this case.

According to the MD on board the emergency equipment was functioning properly.

The relative of this woman is a lay person and has probably not been trained on the use of the portable fibrillation system. the system will NOT fire if it detects a heart beat.

according to the doctor, heart beats were detected by the device and it would not authorize a charge.

the doctor said something like "It wont allow a charge." which the relative on the flight assumed to mean the equipment was broken or not working properly, when in fact it was.

i dont usually side with the evil giant corporation but in this case im going to have to do just that, the MD said the stuff was working and tried to save the woman... sometimes it is just your time to go.

I hear these stories every day from relatives who are in the medical field and they always end with "we did everything we could do" or "there was nothing we could do for her" or "sometimes it is just your time to go"

So, empty O2 bottles was in fact a defibrillator in question and a functioning one at that. More quality reporting from the worlds press. Print the first thing that we hear

Matt

there were oxygen bottles used as well.

the oxygen bottle used was a portable oxygen bottle, it is required to contain enough oxygen pressure for the flight attendant to breath normally for a short period of time while performing cabin duties in the event of an emergency decompression descent. (i dont recall the exact numbers) but this oxygen bottle is not the same as the oxygen bottle that supplies passenger oxygen through the overhead masks. there are in fact several oxygen bottles throughout the aircraft.

the bottle would probably be depleted very rapidly if attached to the face of a panicked individual but i have not heard about this.

all i heard was that the MD on board attested to the fact that all equipment used on the woman was working as prescribed. i would think the Doctor knows what he is talking about. but i could be wrong  :-/

assuming this gets out of control, AMR is going to have the doctor testify as an expert witness as to the womans condition.

the flight attendant will have to testify as to her preflight examination of the bottles, and the lawyers will try to make her look like she doesn't know what she is talking about.

In the end... if the flight attendant says she preflighted the bottle and it met minimum pressure requirements, and the Doctor who administrated care says that the equipment was working properly, the womans family does not have much of a case.

Should the airline be held financially responsible for a passenger who dies of what are assumed to be natural causes in flight when the crew and on board doctors tried to save the passenger?

assuming the airline had improper equipment or poor equipment on board -YES they should

but if everything was functioning properly... the NO, i don't think so.

Partly im glad to be a pilot in the flight deck. We are responsible for preflighting the general aircraft and flight deck, and rarely have to deal with passengers other than diverting and landing at the nearest airport when something like this happens. on the other hand the FAA is likley to come down on the captain because he was Pilot in Command. and the regs state as the PIC you are responsible for the flight.

this will no doubt snowball into something big, but if i know AMR you wont hear about it until it is all over.