Simviation Forums

NDB's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-directional_beacon

Hello Lads......!

An quote from one of my UK "Flyer" magazines. November 2004:

"Belgocontrol - an enlightened bunch obviously.
They have stated their desire to rid their country (Belgium, obviously) of NDB's before 2010 when the rest of us should be rid of them".

I wonder why NDB's are so unpopular with the aviation sector, when they seem to me to be a simple, low cost, reasonably reliable  method of radio navigation compared to the more sophisticated, expensive (and fewer) VOR navigation aids?

The NDB beacon right in the middle of my local airfield means that I never get lost. The comforting little needle on my dash board always points the way home whatever the weather.......!
The VOR beacons in the area are few and far between, and often out of range.

There appear to be many more NDB beacons than VOR's around, so if they are about to be switched off, what is going to replace them, if anything!

Cheers all...!

Paul... ...!

There appear to be many more NDB beacons than VOR's around, so if they are about to be switched off, what is going to replace them, if anything!

Paul... ...!

Its an amazing transformation of the alphabet here Paul......
I'm sure if you apply the "learnings" of Darwin here, you'll soon put together the new law of natural selection and survival of the fittest and see that the only way things can advance, is to allow "NDB" to evolve into "GPS" !

Why NDBs are unpopular

Long-time known stuff
[*]Large influence of the weather (cloud cover and solar activity can make the signal range longer or shorter).
[*]No range info and such (but you can learn that)
[*]Maintainability

More recent reasons
[*]The remote ones are powered by nuclear batteries (environmentalists complaining and more recently terrorism risks)
[*]General antenna scare (remember the recent fuss about GSM?)
[*]Increased GPS ownership, and the fact that the US DOD still doesnt have enough MILSPEC GPS recievers to be able to lower the commercial precision whitout half the army getting lost in the desert

So....
What am I going go bung in the 3-1/4 diameter inch hole in my instrument panel, and fill up the blank slot in my Bendix-King radio stack.... ...?

...and who's going to buy me a new, snazzy, portable GPS receiver...
...which takes three weeks to program before each flight...
...and even then you get it wrong...
...and you get lost....
...again...!

...arse....!

LOL......!

Paul...I love my little yellow needle......!

I'm with ya Fozz

I'm with ya Fozz  (see my long time signature).. avitar thingy  :-[

I always thought NDBs were underestimated and their simplicity under-appreciated..

I don't know about European commercial radio, but here in the U.S.  An AM radio station makes an excellent NDB..  (plus you can pick up local news, traffic and weather).

Whenever I'm flying back to Columbus, Ohio.. I just tune the ADF receiver to 610 and it points right to the heart of the city (where 610 WTVN has their transmitter)..

I've read a number on very interesting articles in my various UK Pilot Magazines regarding the new-fangled Glass Cockpits, replacing the nice, simple, old-fashioned analogue instruments in our small GA aeroplanes..

The Glass Cockpits were a source of great confusion in interpretation, with serious risks of errors in programming them.
In one of the flight tests a simple electrical fault caused a total failure of all the screens, and the flight had to be safely maintained with reference to the couple of analogue instruments still remaining in the instrument panel..!!

The pilots were spending more time looking at the confusing glassware than looking out of the window in front...!!
...and they were not impressed with the results....!

Paul....as the saying goes; "Newer is not always better!"... ...!

I know how you feel Paul.

Things started going down hill when pilots (except certain military pilots) were told they did not have to learn the morse code.

We have not had the use of marker beacons (inner, middle, outer) in a number of years in this country except at a few fighter bases.

Now we are losing many NDBs as well.

The GPS is a wonderful navigational tool until someone knocks out the satellite system which are prime targets during a war.

Most pilots today have no idea how to use a sextant or octant and that includes our seafaring friends as well.

Many of us have argued and spoke out not against the technology we have but the technology we are slowly losing like the use of morse code, celestial navigation, old fashioned airmanship and seamanship.

The powers to be only see the dollar sign and this has always been our downfall especially at the outbreak of any hostility. When they finally realize their mistake (they won't admit it but blame someone else) it is to late, we have already lost many good people.

History has proven this many time over but only time will tell.

You can still tune into a radio station Paul and work your own approach off that beacon with your ADF

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

Trucker's right; if you fly near an urban center there's bound to be an AM station nearby.
I think NDBs are very handy sometimes, but it wouldn't break my heart to see them all go... the bigger problem is that this is all part of a trend to, well, eventually remove humans from piloting altogether, it seems.
VORs are already being decommisioned in this country- now that's disturbing! And many green students coming up, if flying in a GPS-equipped plane, are absolutley lost, bewildered, and terrified if the thing is turned off.
At this rate, I reckon in 20 years if you can program the GPS-slaved AP and stay awake for the whole flight, you'll get your pilot's license.

Ah... "progress".  ::)


On the other hand: I had a discussion with a friend Sunday about GPS... he learned to fly in Citabrias and the like many moons ago, but his RV-4 has a neat little panel-mounted GPS-com, and he says he won't fly in unfamiliar country without a GPS, even just a hand-held.... as backup.
Pulled his chestnuts out of the fire once (with a handheld ) on a cloudy day in the N. Carolina hills in a Citabria once... it was pretty much "ground contact" flying once he realized he had to press on to his nearby destination (wx kinda closed in around him). The cloud bases were resting on the hilltops, which were obscured even lower by haze (I've seen that, first time I flew down there. Scary).
But that unit had no terrain display; he had to know that the route he chose would keep him in the valley, so he had to know how to read the chart properly, and estimate the time, etc., before commiting to the "little grey line".  Once his course was set, all he had to do was keep 'er straight and level and keep zooming in until he could see the runway on the display and plan a straight-in.
So in the right hands, it's a very useful tool.

At any rate... I will sort of miss NDBs; they have a certain simple charm. I almost hope I get the chance to do an NDB approach in IMC someday, but it's not likely to happen.

Hi Sean

I know exactly how your friend felt, I flew for years without GPS and long before it came into being.  Even the VOR Stations were new, everything was done by NDB or Map Reading (good old fashioned navigation).

I would not own an aircraft today without a GPS BUT I still use the trusty map, NDBs and VORs.  Not that I do not trust the GPS because I do, but it is the way I was trained to fly and navigate.

Long before the Cessna 185 was even invented I flew bush during the summer months to pay for my University Degree as my marks were not high enough to get into the Royal Military College at Kingston. (only one in the family who never went )
I flew out of a hole in the ground up near WAWA Ontario, we would start flying about 06:00 in the morning and by 09:00 the fog would be so thick off Georgian Bay you could walk on it.
Scud running was the thing of the day, you got down in the valley looking up at the pine trees and you could not see the tops of the trees as they were in the fog.
I used the same valley all the time and prayed many a time no one was coming the opposite direction and I made it to the lake before the fog settled in.

I would tune into a radio station with the ADF as we had no VORs then and like Paul says thats how many a late evening you got home.  I would do an approach off that station onto the lake itself in the dark (illegal with a seaplan/floatplane) unless there are under water landing lights like at some of the large Air Force Stations on the water.

Yes Paul I agree with you,  NDBs should not be decommissioned because if they save one life then they are worth having, besides the dam things are already paid for a thousand fold.

Sean you get out there and try a couple of NDB approaches in that C172.  It will only make you a better pilot and what harm can it do?

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
Who:
Has been up there
Wishing he was down here
To many times

I've never, not once, tuned to an NDB in all my training.  Hell, they've never even been mentioned.  No idea how to use them.  From my FS experience, I'm assuming it's just enter frequency, then fly where the needle is pointing, but that's just an assumption.

There's a bit of finesse flying to or from an NDB..

Saying NDB around an instrament student will automatically raise their blood pressure to an un healthy level, and make their (you know what) hole tighter

When I learned to fly three years ago, I was only required to read about NDB's and I never actually navigated with one.  I don't even think the three Cessna 172's available for rent at my home airport have ADF equipment.

I've never, not once, tuned to an NDB in all my training.  Hell, they've never even been mentioned.  No idea how to use them.  From my FS experience, I'm assuming it's just enter frequency, then fly where the needle is pointing, but that's just an assumption.

That technique will get you there eventually, but as Brett says, if you "home" on the beacon you'll fly an arc towards it if there's any wind.

To do it with wind, you must first get a bearing on it, then turn to a heading that is the same as the bearing plus or minus wind correction angle which will of course be a little different that whatever offset you were using originally. If you think of that bearing angle as a VOR radial, it makes more sense... often when tracking a radial, your aircraft heading is not the same as the radial. What's tricky about NDBs is that instead of that needle and dot to show you if you're on track, you have to do some calculating first. Once you've made your decision, though, you need only keep that needle deflected the same amount as it was when you rolled out on your new course, and if the wind doesn't change, you should be OK. It's challenging. But in VFR flight, as you go crabbing towards the station, you can use visual landmarks or VOR radials, and even DME readings, to confirm you're on track. It just requires more skull sweat- and that's not a bad thing, most of the time.
In my RL (VFR) flying, I've rarely tracked directly to NDBs, although back when I was flying out of KTEB, I often reported inbound at the Paterson NDB or was directed there to hold by the tower. I usually did OK tracking to it.
Mostly, though I've used them as rough waypoints when there are no easily recognizable landmarks: when the needle shows I've passed it, or when it shows a particular bearing, I have a better idea where I am along my route. This is very useful when you'd like to have a VOR intersection but there's only one VOR within range... or when there's no VOR at all within range.
And if you're hopelessly lost but know you're in the neighborhood, or if you have to divert due to wx or whatever, even spiralling to a nearby NDB is better than blundering around.

I'll miss those NDBs... I'll  miss LORAN, too- I used to rent a Skyhawk that had LORAN; very accurate sometimes, and potentially more reliable (as a system) than GPS.

 

Only used them once in RL, but I will use them all the time in FS9 if one is available & relevant to my navigation. I like using them, I find it a very simple & easy way to navigate.

Although, I nearly always use an NDB in conjuction with a VOR & DME (if available), just as a back up - & to reassure myself of my direction!!

I believe what Brett says 'Every outer-marker should be an NDB' - that would make things much easier.

Can't remember the last time I used the GPS in FS9.

Cheers,

TSC.