Simviation Forums

I work at Harvey Field (KS34) up in Snohomish and this Tuesday morning started out exciting! One of our school's airplanes had an engine failure on their takeoff clim. It was a Cessna 172 with an instructor and a student. Unfortunately the instructor decided to attempt a 180 turn back to the runway and, like 90% of the people who attempt this, didn't make it and had to put it down in a flooded field. Once the wheels hit the muddy ground she flipped over on her back. Thank GOD he was smart enough to not stall the thing when doing that 180! As long as you hit the bottom first, you can pretty much guarantee walking away from it... it' sjust when that blasted nose goes in first that things get complicated.

Both pilots are OK, one had a scratch on his forehead and the other was unmarked. THANK GOODNESS they were OK.
Unfortunately it seems as though these kinds of events occur in 3's and this has been the second non-fatal accident at the airport within the last 2 months. Hopefully there will be no number 3. Especially since I will be flying 3 days a week there! haha

Here is a picture of it:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/6628273/detail.html#

The fact that the instructor(!) even tried to turn the plane is a disaster!

Not only do you waste time and altitude, but you lose airspeed to boot (going from headwind to tailwind)

But thank god both were okay  :)

Oh, I know man, I just cringed when someone said, "he tried to turn back!"  Ugh...


I was blessed with an instructor 5 years ago who absolutly drilled into my head to not EVER consider the 180 and that is one thing I will certainly pass on to my students.  

Like I said, I'm so glad he had the sense to notice he wouldn't make it and actually set her down  when the wheels first! lol

Engine failure right after takeoff *shudders* :-/

I'm real glad to hear that they're both ok

Every time I take off, I consider briefly exactly what I will do if that engine quits on me (not a pleasant thought)... and the scenario never involves turning back.!!
 I'm not even so sure I could make it off the top of the crosswind leg, unless there was a good stiff breeze straight down the runway. I've done it (with a good engine, just throttled back) from abeam the numbers on downwind, and that's about my personal limit. Hope I never have to do it for real, despite being pretty confident practicing it.
Very glad that this story had a happy ending: the best part is that a certain pilot will likely never ever try that again...

Snohomish? I used to live almost miles from there

Glad to hear the occupants are ok.

As for the engine failure after takeoff, at what altitude do you think would be ok to turn around and land? I once heard to never consider it unless you were atleast a 1000 feet AGL on upwind.

Hey, that's cool!  I just work in Snohomish, I live up in Monroe.

The terrain around would have to be really aweful for me even think about turning around.  AND at AT LEAST 1,500 AGL.   but by the time you're that high you've covered enough ground (hopefully) to open up better landing spots.  

Just think of how tricky it can be to time your base and final turns when practicing an engine failure in the pattern... those two 90* turns can really be tough to judge!  And those are done usually at a decent clip and a level flight attitude.

Now, add to that the fact you're climbing (slow and nose high) and you're right over the runway centerline... so the 180 degree turn becomes really becomes an intercept turn 200 degrees or something, and then back again.  With every turn you make that's a shorter distance you have to go, thanks to the extra load factor from the turn.

I've seen Cessna's crash test videos... the LAST thing I want is for that nose to hit before any other part of the airplane.  I'd rather slam that thing down in some short field where I might have to rip a wing or two off to slow down (once I'm on the ground).  When that nose hits first everyone in the front of the plane gets a taste of it as those thing don't absorb ANY energy!  The pannel comes right up to the back seat!  

I lived in the Everett and Marysville area untill I was 9, then I moved south to the Puyallup area. I went back to visit some relatives last summer for the first time in a few years, and I was amazed at how much the area has developed. Most of Marrysville was unrecognizable to me :-/


As for the panel, if the nose were to hit on impact, wouldn't momentum want to carry the panel forward, and not back into the occupants?

That's cool... small world.

It's amazing how Monroe has changed in the 22 years I've lived here... almost nothing here would be noticable! lol


As for the pannel thing, I'm talking angles at least where the spinner AND the nose wheel would hit at the same time.

Also, the nose wheel just snaps off like a twig. lol  So, it doesn't give you any real help in that area.  Airplanes aren't designed to crash like cars.  

Now those mains on the other hand... that tubular steel is AMAZING  on one of the test sessions the airplane was dropped from like 20 feet right on the wheels... those mains went parallel to the ground and the belly hit the ground... but those things sprung right back!  There was almost no damage to the cabin and would have been a survivable crash.  And the nose wheel just went straight up through the cowl.

Just think of how tricky it can be to time your base and final turns when practicing an engine failure in the pattern... those two 90* turns can really be tough to judge!  And those are done usually at a decent clip and a level flight attitude.
 

I generally do what might be called a "modified" base; that is, a sort of 180-degree descending turn. It could also be though of as an old-school, "unstabilized" approach.  Assuming a half-mile distance from the runway on downwind, it's a pretty leisurely turn for a light single.
A 180 is, of course, a no-no when on the upwind leg (unless you've managed to claw your way up past TPA), but if one is careful not to get slowed up too much and/or bank too steeply, or turn too early and wind up touching down too long, the 180 off downwind works fine. Did it that way on my last BFR when the CFI "pulled the plug" just before the numbers, and he seemed happy with that.
No point in trying to keep things square when you have no power- and you may have some other problem that requires a speedy arrival. If you think of this as your "general emergency landing off downwind", it'll serve well whether it's engine failure, fire, or whatever-  you'll get down sooner.
 Also, if you try to fly a normal base and final, when you're making those two turns, you're now lower and likely slower than you would be if you just wait a brief interval then carefully come about while descending.... not to mention farther from the runway. Not saying it can't work, I just feel safer making one turn, closer to the runway.
  I'd rather risk landing long than getting too low on final with no power. Might overrun and hit something or damage the plane, but that sure beats hitting something while sinking below the glideslope, short of the runway. You can slip like mad if you're long, and land hard due to high descent rate if that's what it takes, but we all know what happens when you try to stretch a power-out glide on final... eep!
And why go an inch farther from the threshold than is absolutely necessary to turn around and get it on the runway, when you have no power available to compensate for the effects of turbulence, etc.?
Needless to say, this will be a short-field-with-obstacles-type approach, especially if the trouble strikes on downwind.... and the exact point in time and space to initiate the descending turn will of course depend on runway length, wind, etc.

He tried a 180 degree turn on a stalled engine in the middle of take off?! What the world was wrong with him?

Good they both got out ok.  8)

One of our school's airplanes had an engine failure on their takeoff clim. It was a Cessna 172 with an instructor and a student. Unfortunately the instructor decided to attempt a 180 turn back to the runway and, like 90% of the people who attempt this, didn't make it and had to put it down in a flooded field.

I'm very surprised that an instructor would attempt that. Are you certain that's what he was trying to do? I've always thought it would be a good idea for all pilots to take a basic gliding course before attempting power. Then they might learn how to actually fly the aeroplane without relying on that darned fan up the front. Every landing in a glider is a forced landing so you make sure you get it right first time. You can't go round for another go if you mess it up.

He tried a 180 degree turn on a stalled engine in the middle of take off?!

It's not possible to stall an aircraft engine unless the prop hits something.