Simviation Forums

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:02 am**

Just heard this on the radio... El al is going to equip several of its passengerplanes with a missile detection-system + countermessures to distract the incomming missile. Seems some time ago one of their planes was nearly missed by a rocket attack. When these planes are converted, they will be put into service on high-risk routes... Where is the world going to...

some info

second source

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:19 am**

Just heard this on the radio... El al is going to equip several of its passengerplanes with a missile detection-system + countermessures to distract the incomming missile. Seems some time ago one of their planes was nearly missed by a rocket attack. When these planes are converted, they will be put into service on high-risk routes... Where is the world going to...

Unfortunately civil airliners have been shot down by missiles in the past & once this has been done the risk will always be there. I'm actually surprised that it's taken so long for an airline to introduce some sort of missile detection system on their aircraft.

THE SHOOTING DOWN OF TWO AIR RHODESIA AIRCRAFT IN SEPTEMBER 1978 & FEBRUARY 1979

For many years the Viscounts had operated a service every day from Salisbury to Kariba to Wankie National Park to Victoria Falls and returning to Salisbury by the reverse route. It was on the last leg from Kariba to Salisbury on the 3rd of September 1978 that Air Rhodesia Flight RH825 radioed a Mayday call. The aircraft "The Hunyani" with fifty two passengers and four crew members on board was hit by a heat seeking Sam 7 missile. It had been fired by ZIPRA men ..... terrorists, guerrillas, combatants, comrades, cadres, freedom fighters, soldiers (depending on your viewpoint)

On the 12 Feb. 1979 another Viscount "The Umniati" Air Rhodesia Flight RH827 was shot down not far from the site of the first crash. This time all 59 on board where lost.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/rob_rickards/viscounts/disasters.htm

PS. This is a Sam 7 Strela-2 portable missile launcher. I'm told they're readily available to anyone that wants one with no questions asked.

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:28 am**

Another example of an airliner shot down :

On 3 July 1988, Iran Air Flight 655 was over the Persian Gulf on its way to the Dubai from Bandar Abbas. The plane flew near the ship USS Vincennes, a U.S. Navy cruiser equipped with the most sophisticated radar and electronic battle gear. They claimed that the ship mistook the airliner for an Iranian F-14 Tomcat. When the aircrew failed to respond to a message, the cruiser shot the airliner down with a missile. All 16 crew and 274 passengers were killed. The United States called the incident a tragic mistake

More info here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Reading this, its easy to understand why they want to equip their airliners with such systems

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:18 pm**

The Iran Air flight destroyed by the Vincennes wouldn't have been helped by a missile distraction system. The system is effective against IR homing missiles only, the SM-2 missile which engaged Iran Air was of the Semi-Active Radar Homing variety.

I am surprised that they are going to use flares rather than a IR dazzler head or heads. Flares are somewhat more effective, but carry with them risks that don't occur with dazzler heads.

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:33 pm**

$2000 a piece? i'd like to get my hand on one just to take the controller and sensors apart

come to think of it, are they working agaisnt cars?

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:46 pm**

The Arkia plane that was attacked in Africa had the system installed already, as it is used by the government. That one used milspec flares instead of th pure infrared ones that they are planning here.

Anyway, there will be some T that will give up his life (as in developing brain cancer) to get around this anyway. Furthermore, a SA-13 isn't fooled by flares anyway and easyly available (these were used against US helicopters in iraq)

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:34 pm**

TAnyway, there will be some T that will give up his life (as in developing brain cancer) to get around this anyway.

If by T you mean terrorist, they don't do it because they have developing brain cancer-the vast majority of suicide bombers are perfectly healthy, young men

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:40 pm**

If by T you mean terrorist, they don't do it because they have developing brain cancer-the vast majority of suicide bombers are perfectly healthy, young men

I'm guessing he means working with radioactive materials.

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:14 am**

I'm guessing he means working with radioactive materials.

High-power radar sets. For example HAWK system has a certain notority for shortening the life of the operator

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:40 pm**

I am surprised that they are going to use flares rather than a IR dazzler head or heads. Flares are somewhat more effective, but carry with them risks that don't occur with dazzler heads.

The simple pulsed IR type dazzler heads (like the ALQ144) don't have enough power to distract an IR missle from the giant IR signature of something the size of an airliner. These systems are very effective on smaller IR signature craft like rotorcraft and the like.

IR Laser based systems which could be effective on an airliner are under development but aren't fielded yet.

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:43 pm**

High-power radar sets. For example HAWK system has a certain notority for shortening the life of the operator

Similar.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:17 am**

Chris_F, I was thinking more along the lines of this:

http://www.dsd.es.northropgrumman.com/c ... index.html

I'd rather fit this than the low power dazzlers fitted to tactical helos. Systems in the link above are much more effective at blinding the seeker head of an IR threat (even an SA-13).

No problems with expendable stores either.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:37 am**

4X-BAW should have one, but i can't find it on photos...
Jordanian Royal A340 has one on the left side of the wingbox, i just don't get it why the thing is in front of the engines.

And the thing isn't as effective as the manufacturer claims anyway. Even with mixers on the exhaust and the anti-IR lantern on the back a Mi-24 is still vulnerable to Stinger missiles

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:16 am**

Chris_F, I was thinking more along the lines of this:

http://www.dsd.es.northropgrumman.com/c ... index.html

I'd rather fit this than the low power dazzlers fitted to tactical helos. Systems in the link above are much more effective at blinding the seeker head of an IR threat (even an SA-13).

No problems with expendable stores either.

That's the type of laser system I'm referring to. My company makes the competing system, which, in my biased oppinion, is further ahead in development than the Northrop Grumman system. Neither of them are ready for prime time yet though, and neither are deployed or operational. I give these things another three to five years before they are viable as a fixed wing IR counter measure.

http://www.eis.na.baesystems.com/news/0 ... 1-2005.htm

There are high powered pulsed IR countermeasures which have been developed. My company fielded one (about the size of a trash can) that was (I believe)propane fired. The device was designed to protect a 747 carying the then-new space shuttle during its appearance at the Paris air show. The thing was huge, heavy, and created a lot of drag: not a viable alternative for an airline.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:28 pm**

Seems a sensible move for an airline based in such a volatile region. Similar countermeasures have been fitted to large military aircraft (not that either of the articles was particularly forthcoming in detail) and are in daily use.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/948498/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/757150/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/642135/M/

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