Simviation Forums

Hello all......!

I was at my next-door neighbours place last night, supping tea and crumpets, as I do, when a program popped up on the tele' entitled "Air crash Investigations".

It covered the problems encountered by the crew of a large passenger jet from Colombo attempting to land at JFK airport during atrocious weather conditions.
Because of heavy traffic, poor visibility and wind shear it was put into a holding pattern until it finally ran out of fuel and crashed short of the Airport killing the crew and many of the passengers.

After watching a reconstruction of the event, there is no way that I would ever apply for a job as a pilot in a commercial passenger jet aeroplane with all the stress and responsibility involved...!

How many of us can truthfully say that we could...?

Cheers all...!

Paul...anything more dangerous than my motor-bike and you can count me out, mates......LOL...!

Hi Paul. There are many stressful jobs that I don't pretend I would be capable of. I've met many airline pilots over the years & they never showed any signs of stress. If they had I'm sure they wouldn't have been allowed to continue flying. I'm quite certain I could cope given the proper training if I was interested in the job which quite frankly I never was. The most stressful thing about it for me would be passing the regular medical checkups which, if failed, could end my career on the spot. I think that my responsibilities as chief engineer were equally as stressful if not more so than for the pilot of the aircraft with the parts I'd signed out fitted to it.

I didn't watch the program you mention or recall the incident but this seems very unusual. If one airport is unsuitable for any reason an alternate should always be available unless in exceptional circumstances.

I gotta tell you Paul, I really feel comfy in those kinds of situations-decisive action is what I do (I've just been promoted to Fireteam Bravo leader in my paintball squad precisely because I can make swift decisions)

I remember that accident well, primarily pilot error. Real sad.

I didn't watch the program you mention or recall the incident you mention but this seems very unusual. If one airport is unsuitable for any reason an alternate should always be available unless in exceptional circumstances.

Extreme fuel exhaustion.  They didn't consider an alternative until it was too late.

[quote]Extreme fuel exhaustion.

......I remember that accident well, primarily pilot error. Real sad.

Extreme fuel exhaustion.  They didn't consider an alternative until it was too late.

I gather there was a big problem with Air Traffic Control....
They were instructed, by higher powers, to continue with landings under extremely dangerous conditions...
...also, change-over between air traffic controllers, resulting in confusion and incomplete instructions, including alternative airfield landings, compounded the problems, adding to the stress experienced by the crew, realising that the aircraft was running short of fuel and doomed to crash, killing themselves and their passengers, and there was nothing they could do to avoid it...!

What an awful position for anyone to find themselves in...!

...That's what I call "Stress"...!

Cheers all......!

Paul...I know how much more stress I am put under when I carry a passenger on my 'bike's pillion seat... ...!

I HATE flippin' stress... ... ...!

P.S...interesting replies, Lads... ...!

there was nothing they could do to avoid it...!

I disagree. I don't know the rules but if the captain was fully aware of the fuel situation surely he could have declared an emergency & told ATC "I'm coming in, ready or not". This would have been his own responsibility whatever the outcome. He would either have been a hero or taken the blame for the possible loss of many lives, including his own & his crew. This is what he's been trained for & the reason he's the captain.

Hi Doug...!

In this particular case, I gather that a lot of the blame was put upon Air Traffic Control, (resulting in compensation pay-outs), for unsatisfactory instructions being passed to the crew as to alternative options, alternative local airports, whilst remaining fuel was available.
The crew at the time was relying upon up-to-date accurate information being passed to them during the final minutes of landing under extremely bad weather conditions, and a heavy traffic load...

It seems to old Fozz, a completely different set of problems experienced by a GA pilot flying a small light aircraft into a small airfield/airstrip under similar weather conditions...
The end result may be the same....but at least it's only the pilot who suffers, knowing that he/she is not risking anyone else's life....
...slightly less stress...   ...!

Paul...landing at Sainsbury's car park, for today's special offers, under ideal weather conditions... ...!

Paul...landing at Sainsbury's car park, for today's special offers, under ideal weather conditions... ...!

In this particular case, I gather that a lot of the blame was put upon Air Traffic Control, (resulting in compensation pay-outs), for unsatisfactory instructions being passed to the crew as to alternative options, alternative local airports, whilst remaining fuel was available.
The crew at the time was relying upon up-to-date accurate information being passed to them during the final minutes of landing under extremely bad weather conditions, and a heavy traffic load...

Unfortunately compensation raises its ugly head. This would have not been a consideration until fairly recently & obviously adds to the stress of anyone responsible for the safety of paying passengers whether this be an aircraft, train, bus or whatever. The captain of an aircraft or ship is the boss from the time it leaves port to the time it arrives at its destination. He is god & has the power of life or death over everyone aboard. He's highly experienced (or should be) & trained for every possible emergency situation. This is much easier now with the complex & expensive simulators in use by all the major airlines. Nobody is going to argue with an airline captain who decides it's time to stop faffing around & take positive action. If he'd declared an emergency & told ATC he was going to attempt a landing despite the conditions no power on Earth except a guided missile aimed at his aircraft could have prevented him doing it.

That Colombian airliner accident did involve some miscommunication, if I remember correctly, but there seemed pehaps to be some machismo involved: the pilot downplayed the fuel situation, not wanting to declare an emergency.


Avianca Flight 52 | January 25, 1990

This Boeing 707 on service from Bogota, Colombia, crashed while approaching its destination at New York's JFK International Airport. Seventy-three of the 158 people aboard were killed. The accident occurred after the plane flew in a holding pattern for 77 minutes while awaiting landing clearance at JFK and ran out of fuel. The NTSB attributed the crash to the failure of the flight crew to manage the aircraft's fuel load and to communicate to ground controllers what had become an urgent fuel situation. The board also criticized the airline for failing to provide the crew with the latest wind shear information in New York, which could have helped the pilot anticipate landing delays there and plan for an alternative destination. The FAA subsequently mandated stricter flight planning and communication requirements for all foreign carriers operating in the U.S.

What's really tough about the stress and responsibilty factor in airline flying is that most of the time, it's just plain boring... then suddenly you've got hundreds of lives in your hand and you have to quickly make a decision that involves their fate.... and it better be the right decision!!
"Hours of sheer boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror" is how I've heard it described.
Not for me, either.

"Hours of sheer boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror" is how I've heard it described.

I think this saying originally described the experience of the average soldier on active service in wartime, possibly during WWI. It would apply equally in this situation although I'm not sure how many airline pilots would experience anything like it during their whole career.

Not for me, either.

It's not for me mainly because the pure boredom would drive me to distraction. I'm sure I could handle the responsibility.

It's a funny old do...

...but I look upon passenger airline pilots as quite well paid 'Bus drivers....
...with the same amount of boredom involved...
..in between the occasional stressful traffic/landing/parking/poor weather, etc, problems...!

Paul...the ultimate deterrant to becoming an airline pillock pilot... .."
...sorry lads...
LOL...!

It's a funny old do...

...but I look upon passenger airline pilots as quite well paid 'Bus drivers....
...with the same amount of boredom involved...
..in between the occasional stressful traffic/landing/parking/poor weather, etc, problems...!

I think you're being unfair to bus drivers Paul & although this is an old saying, our old mate Eno might have something to say about that.

Each to his own & I have a lot of respect for most airline pilots. I've met a few who should never have been allowed within 100 yards of an aeroplane, never mind being in charge of it.

I think if we could understand the full level of training involved and the amount of exams and the qualifications needed to be an airline pilot I think it would put it in its place. Random guess but I reckon 99% of people in Britain would be medically unfit or under-qualified. Only the cream of the best can get to the top and they are so highly trained even before they reach the controls of a real plane that I think they wouldn't be stressed.  
To them it would be like driving a car/motorbike or anything else and they wouldn't find it difficult.

You're right again Doug ........ Pauls right too Airline pilots are mearly bus drivers ... the pay reflects their number of lives in their care and cost of equipment and training. Having said that bus drivers aren't paid enough considering it's s skilled job.

Where things need changing is that people recognise that your earthly bus driver suffers constant stress 9-15 hours a day not just on takeoff and landing.

There's plenty of bus drivers that shouldn't be on the road too.

That was the Avianca crash in Cove Neck, Long Island!

It happened about 15 miles from my house.

Since there was no explosion due to no fuel, the plane basically split open upon impact with a hill and broke to pieces.

People were still strapped to their seats dangling from trees alive!!

It was all over the news here.

Poor communication with the Tower never declaring an EMERGENCY was the reason this plane crashed....  :(