USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22

[beefhole]

[quote][quote]And that article confirms what has been said before-Americans were outnumbered 3 to 1 in EVERY scenario, and India has some damn good pilots.

[Chris_F]

I don't buy that the Americans were flying "Red Air".  I don't see why they'd go all that way to fly as Red Air to help train a foreign military that clearly doesn't need their help.  The article implies that the Red Air info came from an internet message board, an urban legend if you will.

The previously linked article mentions Red Air as well, but only as a training philosophy used out in Nellis, not as something that's done for every major exercise.  There's probably some confusion here as the exercise calls in to question the Red Air technique.  It doesn't however imply that US pilots were flying Red Air in this exercise.  I could see how someone (a journalist, an internet poster) could get confused, especially if they're looking for excuses on why the US came up short.

[beefhole]

It's my understanding that Red Air IS how US pilots fly, period.  In an actual combat scenario I'm sure they'd push it beyond, but AFAIK Red Air is how USAF pilots are supposed to fly in air-to-air.

[Chris_F]

"Red Air" is how the instructor squadron flies at Red Flag in Nellis.  During Red Flag they fly US equipment using the tactics and abilities they expect a fictional "Red" opponent would fly.  The students fly "Blue Air" and use their systems to their maximum abilities.  The concept is that the "Blue" student is confronted with the same capability "Red" opponent they will expect to find in actual combat: lower abilities, lower capabilities, different tactics, command and control, etc.

When US forces participate with other air forces they can do so as "Red" or "Blue" depending on context.  For example, if Iraq had an Air Force and the USAF were engaged with them in a training role then the US forces would fly "Red Air" in order to simulate enemies Iraq would be likely to face: Iran.  In this role the USAF would fly their planes to mimic the expected capabilities of Iranian aircraft.  Likewise I would suspect the USAF often flies "Red Air" with the South Koreans to help train them to confront the North Koreans.

If the US were flying "Red Air" with the IAF then they were mimicing the Pakastani Air Force.  This would be political suicide considering how much the Pakastanis are supporting the US engagement in Afghanastan.  Essentially the US flying "Red Air" with India would be training the IAF to attack Pakastan.  I think Pakastan would object to that.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]
But the American strategy has always been to use technology to counter a numerically superior opponent.

[Fitter]

[/quote]
You realise this story is two years old?[/quote]
Not only Usaf grow up in two years....

[Woodlouse2002]

I was saying that because Chris said that it was two years late for it to have anything to do with F22 funding. I was wondering if he'd taken into account that these exercises took place in 2004.

[beefhole]

"Red Air" is how the instructor squadron flies at Red Flag in Nellis.  During Red Flag they fly US equipment using the tactics and abilities they expect a fictional "Red" opponent would fly.  The students fly "Blue Air" and use their systems to their maximum abilities.  The concept is that the "Blue" student is confronted with the same capability "Red" opponent they will expect to find in actual combat: lower abilities, lower capabilities, different tactics, command and control, etc.

When US forces participate with other air forces they can do so as "Red" or "Blue" depending on context.  For example, if Iraq had an Air Force and the USAF were engaged with them in a training role then the US forces would fly "Red Air" in order to simulate enemies Iraq would be likely to face: Iran.  In this role the USAF would fly their planes to mimic the expected capabilities of Iranian aircraft.  Likewise I would suspect the USAF often flies "Red Air" with the South Koreans to help train them to confront the North Koreans.

If the US were flying "Red Air" with the IAF then they were mimicing the Pakastani Air Force.  This would be political suicide considering how much the Pakastanis are supporting the US engagement in Afghanastan.  Essentially the US flying "Red Air" with India would be training the IAF to attack Pakastan.  I think Pakastan would object to that.

Big long post and I don't see where you prove that USAF pilots aren't trained to deliberately limit themselves in these engagements, as mentioned in the article.  I don't say this to be argumentative, I was just wondering if you could clarify.

And good catch woody-I guess is an old article.  Either way, I don't think they totally threw it, although it's entirely possible they were told not to exert themselves.

[Chris_F]

I was saying that because Chris said that it was two years late for it to have anything to do with F22 funding. I was wondering if he'd taken into account that these exercises took place in 2004.

I did not.  That certainly does lend a lot of creedence to the cynical argument then, now doesn't it...

[Chris_F]

[quote]Big long post and I don't see where you prove that USAF pilots aren't trained to deliberately limit themselves in these engagements, as mentioned in the article.