Flying just got cheaper!!

[Hagar]

I understood that private flying has always been far less restricted in the US compared with the UK. I was discussing this with a charming lady I met on the river bank at Shoreham only last weekend, Turned out she had been a flying instructor in Zambia during the 1970s followed by various commercial flying jobs in Texas. She confirmed what I've always believed, that private flying has always been grudgingly tolerated in the UK while being encouraged in the US.

Say what you like about those sports pilots. After watching them flying into small fields like Popham in tricky crosswinds they're no slouches. They receive special training in this type of thing (PFA Pilot Coaching Scheme) & I reckon they could teach some of the 'old hands' a thing or two. It's horses for courses. If it suits you, go for it.

[Jakemaster]

One issue I can see is people getting kindof cocky.  Someone easily getting they sport pilot license then thinking they can fly anything, getting into a cessna with a buddy, taking over, and then tragically screwing up.


I think that sport pilot is OKAY as long as the pilot is careful and understands the limitations of the plane and his abilities

[Woodlouse2002]

I think flying is over-regulated anyway.

[Hagar]

I think that sport pilot is OKAY as long as the pilot is careful and understands the limitations of the plane and his abilities

I think the same applies with any sort of licence.

PS. The biggest danger is complacency.

[beaky]

Here's another angle in support of the SP ticket:
Older pilots who have either lost their medical or are not eager to take one again and fail... I know some people, not that old and in decent health despite not meeting the requirements, who can now still do what they've been doing for many years: flying daytime VFR in rural areas in ragwings and homebuilts that luckily fall within the guidelines. Without this rating, they'd be grounded. If one is concerned about a bunch of old fogeys with bad hearts flying around, consider my first post here: less than 1/2 of 1% of all aviation accidents in the US are due to medical conditions. Maybe that's because the FAA docs weed people out with the medical exams, but I dunno- there are a lot of flying seniors out there and their safety record is good.
We need those people hanging around airports sharing their wisdom and keeping us on our toes in the pattern in their no-radio planes...

[Ivan]

I'm sorry to hear that...

Ultra-lights themselves, aren't dangerous. It's the mindset that goes with flying them. There's just a much smaller "weather" window in which to fly them and no "real" reason, other than being airborne for the fun of it.. They're just an amplification of what worries me about this Sport Pilot thing. Flying isn't a sport. It's deadly serious business.

It's the only kind of aviation on a normal budget available in holland (anything else needs full IFR + Radio license)

Last two crashes resulted in deaths
The most recent one got tangled up in the advertising banner of a banner tow airplane. Clipped the roof of a house and finally crashed in the middle of a residental area.

The one before that crashed into a hangar on a small airport.

And a while ago one somehow ended up being hit by a F-16 fighter... result: no survivors

[Brett_Henderson]

[quote]It's the only kind of aviation on a normal budget available in holland (anything else needs full IFR + Radio license)

Last two crashes resulted in deaths
The most recent one got tangled up in the advertising banner of a banner tow airplane. Clipped the roof of a house and finally crashed in the middle of a residental area.

The one before that crashed into a hangar on a small airport.

And a while ago one somehow ended up being hit by a F-16 fighter... result: no survivors

[beaky]

These new, lighter, more efficient planes have their place, helping keep our passion more affordable.. but only in the hands of properly trained pilots.

We're on the same page, I think, Brett... "properly trained" is the key phrase. Most of us PPs soloed after less than 20 hours, presumably safe to do some "fun" flying. With an early emphasis on radio/nav  procedures and rigorous knowledge testing, anyone who lacks the "stuff" to pass a PP written, oral, and flight test should be washed out by then, I think.
 I say it's worth trying-  I also think if pilots interested in ultralight flying go the SP route, they may actually get better training than most ultralight fliers. Isn't more training required for current UL cert holders to transition to a SP rating?

[Brett_Henderson]

I haven't taken on a student yet, and won't until I work out this personal syllabus of mine. It seems that just about every time I fly, I think, experience, ponder and try something new, that will be an invaluable bit to "impose" on a new student. This much I've decided on though:

My students won't solo until they've passed the written and if less than 90%.. not until they're at 90% proficiency in my eyes. They will not go up alone without at least calling me and relating their intentions and letting ME make the weather decision.. ideally, meeting me at the airport for preflight (can't wait to put a little piece of Postit next to the static port (downwind side) or just behind the pitot drain and see how astute their pre-flight is as they start getting cocky).

I was comparing PPL solo students to SPs in my head and the main differences are that a solo student can't go to much farther than out of the pattern without a specific logbook endorsement for THAT trip only.. where a 20hour SP can wander off any time. Even in a 50hp Sport Plane.. you can get into unfamiliar space (including another airport's pattern/airspace.. or.. populated areas) pretty darn quickly at 100mph in a straight line. I don't think a pilot is mentally equiped to make those decisions until he's.. well.. a REAL pilot, who'd have no problems negotiating Bravo airspace, if need be.

I know there's not much you can do about the guy who will go out and buy a powered kite and buzz his neighbor's farm and I guess there really shouldn't be.

There's an area not far from KOSU that's an informally designated "ultra light / motorized-lawn-chair-with-a-parachute" zone. We all know that they'll be out there like gnats on a nice day and give them a wide berth. But they ALWAYS end up flying too high and wandering into approach/departure corridors and they don't have lights or radios.

The biggest expense in getting a PPL is of course the plane. When you look down the road..the extra $$ needed to train for a PPL isn't really all that much. Bring on all these neat, little, new planes for a lifetime of fun, inexpensive flying (I might buy one). Just don't turn someone loose in one until trained to PPL standards (which I'd raise if it were up to me)..

[C]

Considering it could take anything between 5 and 15 hours to send someone solo, let alone give them a license this sounds very interesting.

However, thinking back to my own training, after 20 hours I would consider that a license with the following caveats would have been appropriate to my level of skill:

VFR flight only.
Local area flying only within X miles of home airfield. Other airfields in the immediate locality used during training may be used and well known by the pilot may be used, hence no need for visual navigation (other than well known route to from familiar airfield).

This would be on the proviso that adequate emergency handling training was done, and then maybe it could be upgraded by taking suitable "add on" courses to allow aspects such as Nav, IMC etc to be added...

[beaky]

I haven't taken on a student yet, and won't until I work out this personal syllabus of mine. It seems that just about every time I fly, I think, experience, ponder and try something new, that will be an invaluable bit to "impose" on a new student. This much I've decided on though:

My students won't solo until they've passed the written and if less than 90%.. not until they're at 90% proficiency in my eyes. They will not go up alone without at least calling me and relating their intentions and letting ME make the weather decision.. ideally, meeting me at the airport for preflight (can't wait to put a little piece of Postit next to the static port (downwind side) or just behind the pitot drain and see how astute their pre-flight is as they start getting cocky).

I was comparing PPL solo students to SPs in my head and the main differences are that a solo student can't go to much farther than out of the pattern without a specific logbook endorsement for THAT trip only.. where a 20hour SP can wander off any time. Even in a 50hp Sport Plane.. you can get into unfamiliar space (including another airport's pattern/airspace.. or.. populated areas) pretty darn quickly at 100mph in a straight line. I don't think a pilot is mentally equiped to make those decisions until he's.. well.. a REAL pilot, who'd have no problems negotiating Bravo airspace, if need be.

I know there's not much you can do about the guy who will go out and buy a powered kite and buzz his neighbor's farm and I guess there really shouldn't be.

There's an area not far from KOSU that's an informally designated "ultra light / motorized-lawn-chair-with-a-parachute" zone. We all know that they'll be out there like gnats on a nice day and give them a wide berth. But they ALWAYS end up flying too high and wandering into approach/departure corridors and they don't have lights or radios.

The biggest expense in getting a PPL is of course the plane. When you look down the road..the extra $$ needed to train for a PPL isn't really all that much. Bring on all these neat, little, new planes for a lifetime of fun, inexpensive flying (I might buy one). Just don't turn someone loose in one until trained to PPL standards (which I'd raise if it were up to me)..

Can't disagree with any of that- definitely a 20-hr SP would need a bit more than what a PP hopeful has at 20 hrs. Like I said earlier: earlier emphasis on navigation and radio work. Somehow they'll have to squeeze in a suitable amount of the cross-country syllabus.
You've got me wondering what the written-test requirements are for the SPL... the more I think about it, the more I think it should be about the same as for the PPL. As you point out, they need to know about all of it, even if they won't be planning on doing many things. It's rather like how hood

[Hagar]

I would have to check the regulations but if this SP licence is anything like the UK NPPL, the number of hours is the minimum, just like a full PPL. This also involves ground training & written tests, type conversions etc. I really don't see the difference, except that they're limited to the weight of the aircraft & flying VFR within the country where the licence is issued.

I'm not sure of the current JAR PPL requirements but this used to be a minimum of 40 hours - although many pupils took far longer before getting their licence. When I was employed by the flying club a special short PPL course had been introduced with a minimum 30 hours - providing this was done in a certain period of time, possible 6 months. We had several students  while I was there (mainly air cadets on flying scholarships) that passed within the 30 hours & qualified for a full PPL.

Of course, all this might well be different in the US. Did anyone actually check out Skunker's link for more info?
http://www.sportpilot411.com/faq.php?q_id=15#15

[beaky]

Did anyone actually check out Skunker's link for more info?
http://www.sportpilot411.com/faq.php?q_id=15#15

Yes, but I'd have to see a sample written test to learn mre about the knowledge requirements... I'll look more later.

[Hagar]

I'd have to see a sample written test to learn mre about the knowledge requirements... I'll look more later.

In the UK the written test is exactly the same. The training is usually carried out by the same instructors at the same establishments.

[quote]The Private Pilots Licence Aeroplanes

In order to fly light aeroplanes it is necessary to obtain a Private Pilot

[beaky]

In the UK the written test is exactly the same. The training is usually carried out by the same instructors at the same establishments..

Probably about the same here, too... my searches so far have yielded mostly ads for test-prep packages. Seems pretty involved; i don't think they're making it too easy.



.

I reckon this would give anyone a good start & get them in the air. Nobody said you have to stop learning.

You're probably right. And yes, even a PPL is just a "license to learn"...