Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

[beefhole]

I can't argue with that but according to the report he was reaching into his hand baggage. If this is the case why was the bomb. gun or whatever not detected before he boarded the aircraft?

The air marshalls can't assume everything is going to be detected in security.  If it was, there would be no need for air marshalls.

I would definitely agree that it was a justified shooting.  Still a tragedy, nonetheless.

[SilverFox441]

In the case of the guy in Miami, he boarded the flight in Medilin, Columbia.

Understanding the amount of contraband that has been shipped form the Medilin area into the US... there's no reason to believe that someone couldn't have shipped a Stinger missile into their carryon luggage.  ::)

Given that facts as they are currently understood there are only two victims...the Air Marshalls who took a life. Even the fatality isn't a victim here...with his mental illness he just turned into an elaborate "suicide by cop".

[Hagar]

[quote]The air marshalls can't assume everything is going to be detected in security.

[Paz]

 I'm not sure I understand where there is even call for a debate on this issue, I don't give a crap what the guys problem was, if you're in an airport yelling that you have a bomb and get shot by a person who is employeed to protect people from the whacko's who are out there, too F-ing bad, as far as I am concerned there is one less lunatic and the air marshall should get a raise for taking care of business.

 You know damn well if the guy actually did detonate a bomb and killed a bunch of people, the same bunch of crybaby whiners would be bitching that the air marshall didn't do his job, so I say someone needs to tell all these piss'n' moaners to shut the F*** up!

[Hagar]

[quote]

[Paz]

http://www.cnn.com/
The page seems to have been updated but the original report stated that this man made his threat while still on the aircraft. He was chased by the air marshall or marshalls from the aircraft into the airport terminal before being shot. This means that in order to use a bomb or gun he was allowed to carry these onto the aircraft from the departure airport without them being detected on his person or in his hand baggage. I think this puts a different slant on it altogether & makes the discussion relevant.

 I will just stay out of it, I have no sympathy for stupidity, I think people like this get what they have coming to them and of course they will use any excuse they can come up with to make this piece of crap look like a victim.
In my opinion we need more of this, maybe once people start to see that the authorities aren't playing around these dumbasses would think twice before doing or saying something so stupid as going around on an airplane or anywhere else threatening to blow people up.

 If anyone thinks my opinions are too harsh I apologize, but I just get so sick of the way people always try to defend the bad guys in these situations then try to twist it around and make the ones trying to do the right thing out to be murderers, people need to shut their mouths and open their eyes once in a while.

[Hagar]

If anyone thinks my opinions are too harsh I apologize, but I just get so sick of the way people always try to defend the bad guys in these situations then try to twist it around and make the ones trying to do the right thing out to be murderers, people need to shut their mouths and open their eyes once in a while.

You're entitled to your opinion & I know many others feel the same way as you. I'm simply pointing out that if they concentrated on airport security instead of relying on these dubious air marshalls there would be no need for these shoot-outs or cases of mistaken identity. If they can't detect bombs or guns in hand baggage with any degree of certainty well I'm sorry but the obvious answer seems to me to stop everyone carrying hand baggage onto the aircraft. This would make things far easier & cause very little inconvenience if you think about it. Most things you will need during the flight, except things like personal medication, are already provided free of charge by the airline. Either that or you stop anyone with a mental illness from flying. I've never believed that armed marshalls is the answer to this problem. Prevention is far better than cure.

[elite marksman]

However unfortunate, I believe that the marshals reacted as they should have. In my opinion this was nothing more nor less than an elaborate suicide by cop. Regardless of his intentions if you say that you have a bomb, no matter where you are, you will be seriously injured or killed. A kid came to school and said that he had a knife with him. For his trouble he ended up with a dislocated shoulder and a fractured forearm for his trouble. In reality he did not have a knife, but in both the shooting and the incident at my school, you must pose the question "what if he really did."

[Hagar]

I'm not accusing the air marshalls who were doing what they were trained for. What I'm saying is that if airport security was doing its job properly they would not be in this position as there would be no need for them.

I also agree that any passenger claiming to have a bomb or gun on board an aircraft deserves anything they get. Again, if airport security was as efficient as it should be, nobody would believe them so the threat would be pointless. This can only prove that all the inconveniece that passengers have to go through before boarding an aircraft is a complete & utter waste of time for everybody concerned.

[SilverFox441]

Do any of us know just what the security measures in Medilin , Columbia are like?

No security measure is ever going to be perfect, that's why the Air Marshall program exists...as a last line of defence.

[Hagar]

Do any of us know just what the security measures in Medilin , Columbia are like?

I have no idea but it's obviously not up to scratch. I've been in the business for most of my working life but this does nothing for my confidence & I would seriously think twice before flying to the US ever again. If I feel this way what would the average passenger feel about it?

[SilverFox441]

I've been in the business for most of my working life but this does nothing for my confidence & I would seriously think twice before flying to the US ever again.

Why would this affect you flying to the US?

The incident aircraft departed Medilin, Columbia bound for the US. The passenger screening would have been carried out in Columbia, by Columbian authorities. The US had no involvment except to place a Air Marshall team onto the flight. We've agreed that the AM team carried out it's assigned duties.

How does that reflect poorly on US aviation safety?

[elite marksman]

Personally, I would rather fly with air marshals on the aircraft than without them. No security measure anywhere can ever be 100% effective. Also, the security checks are an inconvience, but would you rather have the inconvience and security, however small it may be, or simply have anybody be able to walk onto an aircraft without anybody checking to see if they are really who they say they are and noone checking thier luggage for any weapons. Personally, I would rather show up to the airport a day early if it meant that there was absolutly no chance of someone bringing any kind of weapon onto the aircraft. Again, air marshals are the last line of defence between the passangers and anyone who intends, sincere or not, to do harm.

[Hagar]

How does that reflect poorly on US aviation safety?

I've not visited since 9/11 but from what I've read on the subject airport security in the US has always been suspect. More for show than anything else which gives the passengers false confidence. I don't know who is responsible for vetting passengers but in my view this should be down to the airline at both ends of the journey. I can't imagine El Al, who have been in this situation for much longer than most airlines, allowing anyone aboard one of their aircraft without first being subjected to a careful security check by their own security staff.

I have far more confidence in airport security in the UK. Some time ago Heathrow security detected a passenger in transit from the US to another destination carrying a gun & ammunition in his jacket pocket during a random check. If the security at the US airport he departed from had been doing ther job properly this should have been picked up before he ever boarded the aircrraft.

PS. I believe he boarded the aircraft in Washington DC.

[beefhole]

In that case it might be much better if they review the airport security arrangements. If they did their job properly there would be no need for air marshalls.

Doug, you seem like a very reasonable person, I know that much from my time here.

It would be folly to say that the answer is to uprgade our airport security so that it is 100% secure, as, I'm sure you know, that is 100% impossible.  The airport screening is the primary defense-the air marshalls are there to catch those who fall through, and no matter how good our screening process gets (in reality, it can't really get any better than what we have now) it will still be possible to slip through, somehow.  That's why air marshalls are necessary, as a second line of defense.

A ship is impossible to sink.  Should it still carry lifeboats?