Very close call (runway incursion)

[beaky]

Wow!! Here's two pilots who will be more vigilant in the future... and how about that Stinson? that's one tough airplane...

http://www.vansairforce.net/

[DaveSims]

That happens more often than you want to know.  Typical low wing aircraft on top of a high wing aircraft.  Both aircraft were in each others blind spot.  This is why use of the radio and proper traffic patterns are essential.

[beaky]

That happens more often than you want to know.  Typical low wing aircraft on top of a high wing aircraft.  Both aircraft were in each others blind spot.  This is why use of the radio and proper traffic patterns are essential.

They apparently were doing everything they should have- a factor in this one is the high trees near the approach end of the runway in question. I've heard from pilots who say it's very hard to see aircraft on final from the hold-short position there... and it's hard to see aircraft holding short when you're on final for 35.

[Brett_Henderson]

It's hard to imagine that a call from  "turning final" ..  and a call from  "taking runway XX"  heard and understood , would let this happen.  Especially on a runway where a  "short final" call would be warranted, too.

There was some sort of mis-communication.. mis-understanding .. or missed call.

[beaky]

It's hard to imagine that a call from  "turning final" ..  and a call from  "taking runway XX"  heard and understood , would let this happen.  Especially on a runway where a  "short final" call would be warranted, too.

There was some sort of mis-communication.. mis-understanding .. or missed call.

I guess there had to be.
But you have some low-wing time... do you really think you'd miss a red Stinson - in position- at any point on your final leg? It's not like the Stinson rolled out at just the wrong moment, they were both aligned with the runway, obviously. I'm inclined to lay the bulk of the blame at the feet of the Piper pilot... it just seems hard to believe that he'd not see the Stinson if he was paying attention.
How do you land without a good view of the threshold, anyway? I usually don't look at the far end of the runway until I'm past the numbers, myself.

It's very odd every time this happens- even with a low wing the visibility is adequate to see the end of the runway as you come "over the fence".

[DaveSims]

I don't know, without knowing any of the particulars in this case it would be hard for me to assess fault.  Granted you would think the Piper on final would have seen the Stinson, but possibly couldn't predict the Stinson moving onto the runway in time to prevent it.  This is why its important to check before taking the runway.  And for god sakes use the friggin radio.  I know the FAA doesn't require it, but why ignore something so obvious just because you can.

[Hagar]

All I can say is that they were extremely lucky.

Here's a vid of an RV8 landing on the same runway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0NLpEAimWY

[Brett_Henderson]

But you have some low-wing time... do you really think you'd miss a red Stinson - in position- at any point on your final leg?

No...  Watch that Simteevee video of mine.. the camera is pretty close to pilot-eye level. And a steeper final would have afforded an even better view. This isn't a High-wing/low-wing thing.

How do you land without a good view of the threshold, anyway? I usually don't look at the far end of the runway until I'm past the numbers, myself.

You can't ..  and not that it matters... unless something is making me concentrate on the threshold (like a x-wind, or modified approach), I'm looking at the departure end, well before I reach the runway (that might explain a few things..  lol    )

I can't figure out how he (landing pilot) couldn't have seen the Stinson  :-/

[beaky]

I don't know, without knowing any of the particulars in this case it would be hard for me to assess fault.  Granted you would think the Piper on final would have seen the Stinson, but possibly couldn't predict the Stinson moving onto the runway in time to prevent it.  This is why its important to check before taking the runway.  And for god sakes use the friggin radio.  I know the FAA doesn't require it, but why ignore something so obvious just because you can.

Well, let's just say that in general, the aircraft on final really has the final responsibility, having the better view of the situation...and in the end, good radio practice is simply not enough.
Here's why:

Radios are a big help, but not all aircraft have them, not everyone uses them (correctly or otherwise), and the information broadcast should be taken with a grain of salt. I have heard, and said, some really stupid things on CTAFs... wildly innacurate stuff... or sometimes it can be something very subtle, like a plane being on the wrong freq, or the right freq but at the wrong airport (many shared frequencies out there, often by airports fairly close together).

The eyes tell the best story, but an aircraft about to take the runway is often at a disadvantage, as is the case at the airport in question... trees are commonly an obstruction that prevents a proper last-minute look. Yes, one should look when one can. I always stop first at an angle where I can look at the approach area, before approaching the hold-short. and there's no reason you must get as close to the hold-short line as possible; it's a line you don't cross until ready, that's all. You can roll out to the active from your run-up position, or wherever you like.
But sometimes you just can't see, or perhaps you heard them call final, but you underestimate how rapidly that plane is approaching.

So... fair or not, the onus falls on the arriving aircraft, even if it's the departing pilot who's failed to talk, listen, or look. The pilot on final simply has a better vantage point. Even a plane with lousy forward visibilty on the ground allows a good view of the threshold when pitched down slightly for final; there's really no excuse that I can think of, although I'd love to be proved wrong.


Who knows? Maybe the Piper pilot expected the Stinson to start rolling sooner and figured he could drop in behind...or maybe he thought it would stay put and he could land beyond it. In that case, the Stinson pilot definitely made a no-no (NEVER linger in position!!), but the Piper pilot made a self-serving  assumption, which is an even bigger no-no.

We may never know, but nothing would surprise me, even if I don't get the reasoning of the pilots involved. I've seen some pilots do some very dangerous things on or near runways, quite casually, as if they do it often.

[DaveSims]

Oh we will find out , I watch the NTSB database daily as part of my job.  Thats how I saw the official report of your wing skin incident.  I'll post a link when the report comes out.