Paul Tracy

[jb2_86_uk]

[quote]JB, he is on about Gilles (sorry wrong spelling i know) not JV. GV was one of those drivers who died because he pushed himself and his car past its limits. He shouldn't have even been in the race he was, as he was still carrying the anger and the stress of the previous race loss where he was screwed over for the win.

[expat]

I think where people loose sight is that Fangio, Moss, Brabham, Nuvolari, Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson, Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Lauda and a whole bunch of others from that generation and to a certain extent Prost and Senna, but very much on the tail end, these guys were sportsman.
Schumacher on the other hand is a businessman and in plain terms a company Rep for Ferrari. It has to be said, he does it well too. That is mainly why I am not a Schuey fan. Mind you do we have any sportsmen or women nowadays?
What do you do for a living?
I run
I swim
I play tennis
I throw the javlin
Etc etc

Matt

[Craig.]

the one sport you have to have at least some respect for the sportsment is F1. These guys are incredibly fit men, and when was the last time you heard of a drugs/ doping scandal in the sport? Thats not something you can say about any other sports. Yes these guys have alot of technology behind them, but the speeds, the G-forces, and the reaction times these guys have are so much tougher. Yes they have the safety aspect nowadays. But guys back in Moss and Fangio's time would be out drinking before the race hell. I know of some instances where some werre drunk going into the race. LOL. Very differant times.

[jb2_86_uk]

Schumacher on the other hand is a businessman and in plain terms a company Rep for Ferrari. It has to be said, he does it well too.

Schumacher is a rep for ferrari, but you have to remember there are 21 other guys out there who are also reps for their respective teams!  :P Formula one has turned into just as much of a business recently than a sport. Thats why we see so many television adverts featuring formula one drivers (Renault & Fernando Alonso comes to mind in the UK) but all drivers will have it written into their contracts to rep for the company and their partners. Another example is Jarno Trulli, who has just taken a Toyota F1 car for a spin around some Finnish streets promoting the sport and his team. thats the way this sport works. And be thankful for it too otherwise teams wouldnt be able to afford to push the bounderies of technology!

JB

[expat]

Schumacher is a rep for ferrari, but you have to remember there are 21 other guys out there who are also reps for their respective teams!  :P Formula one has turned into just as much of a business recently than a sport. Thats why we see so many television adverts featuring formula one drivers (Renault & Fernando Alonso comes to mind in the UK) but all drivers will have it written into their contracts to rep for the company and their partners. Another example is Jarno Trulli, who has just taken a Toyota F1 car for a spin around some Finnish streets promoting the sport and his team. thats the way this sport works. And be thankful for it too otherwise teams wouldnt be able to afford to push the bounderies of technology!JB

To that I must be thankful for my ABS, traction control, semi automatic gearbox and stability controle for cornering.

the one sport you have to have at least some respect for the sportsment is F1. These guys are incredibly fit men, and when was the last time you heard of a drugs/ doping scandal in the sport? Thats not something you can say about any other sports. Yes these guys have alot of technology behind them, but the speeds, the G-forces, and the reaction times these guys have are so much tougher. Yes they have the safety aspect nowadays. But guys back in Moss and Fangio's time would be out drinking before the race hell. I know of some instances where some werre drunk going into the race. LOL. Very differant times.

Schumy staggering to his car, breathing fumes and dying for the race to start so that the airflow cleared his head.......Can't see that happening this millenium. F1 of yesterday and today is like comparing a spitfire with the Eurofighter. The Spit most certianly has the curves, but would never hack it in todays world.

Matt

[wombat666]

But guys back in Moss and Fangio's time would be out drinking before the race hell. I know of some instances where some werre drunk going into the race. LOL. Very differant times.

Oh really?
You were actually present at the time were you??

It always amuses me when a 20 something 'expert' shares his 'knowlege' with us proles ...... especially when some of us have witnessed the 'Real Racers' in action.
Some might just have a few race track miles in real life as well.

Fangio was a non - dinker and Moss was exceptionally fit, in fact, most of the drivers at the top level had to be very fit, as they drove in the Mille Miglia, Targa Florio, 24 Hours of Le Mans, Nurburgring 1000K etc.
Moss even competed in Rally events and all drove a few different categories on the GP weekend.
Nothing too see Jimmy Clark drive a Lotus Cortina and win, do the same in a Lotus 23 and follow up by winning the Grand Prix.
Brabham was a regular Mustang driver and a winner in his own BT8 sports car on those weekends as well.

BTW, that Williams won the constructors in 1994 because the much put upon Damon Hill worked really hard to get it into shape ..... it was dead evil until mid season.
And a word for Hill, he won the Spanish GP in fine style, with only Monaco in between his win and Senna's death.

[Craig.]

Did i say anyone specifically? I just have heard Stirling Moss himself tell the stories of guys from his time. As for watching them? Obviously not live but thats the great thing about archived footage.

BTW, that Williams won the constructors in 1994 because the much put upon Damon Hill worked really hard to get it into shape ..... it was dead evil until mid season.

The same can be said for a couple of cars that have won championships. Damon was upto the challenge and too be fair, with the exception of Michael and his Bennaton there were no challengers. Mansell had clearly lost his edge in the short time he drove it, and it took him till the end to get a win. The Ferrari's were just plain awful that year and Mclaren were getting over losing Senna to Williams. Also remember the FW15 was the last of the front runners to use the blended nose and wing. I think Mclaren ran it for a few races aswell but switched to the straight nose and low wing. Which gave the advantage to those runners. Does it matter when Hill did the job, the simple fact was he did it.

[wombat666]

To that I must be thankful for my ABS, traction control, semi automatic gearbox and stability controle for cornering.

Matt

Except you are not prmitted to run ABS, Traction Control, 'Automatic' gearboxes and trick suspension packages like the Renault 'Mass Damper' unit.
Of course, it's 'allowed' for the time being, but the vested interests will get it thrown out sooner rather than later.
I'm sure a set of those nice 'grooved slicks' would prove very useful in 'normal' road use, and of course, the only 'Engine' format run in 'EffWun' is a V8 ...... except for the stop gap 'restricted' V10.
Far from being the 'Cutting Edge' of motoring technology, the 'Business of EffWun' has been dumbed down for the lower end of the gene pool ........  ???
Me, myself, I often think the only thing EffWun generates is obscene amounts of money for Max and Bernie, perhaps the gene pool needs a good dose of chlorine.

[jb2_86_uk]

Except you are not prmitted to run ABS, Traction Control, 'Automatic' gearboxes and trick suspension packages like the Renault 'Mass Damper' unit.
Of course, it's 'allowed' for the time being, but the vested interests will get it thrown out sooner rather than later.

Those aids are prohibited in the sport right now, but it was F1 that introduced and developed this technology that can be found on any new car today.

The reason The '94 Williams was such a dog for the first part of the season is because Williams ventured into new ground and pioneered the active suspension (which was subsequently banned). This was a radical new idea and Williams were openly criticized for running this unproven technology and not saving it until the next season. Williams proved their critics wrong and by the end of the season had the best car on the track (turns out the suspension wasnt schumacher proof )

It always amuses me when old timers will talk about how things used to be and are too ignorent to change with the sport.

JB. Aged 20

[wombat666]

Those aids are prohibited in the sport right now, but it was F1 that introduced and developed this technology that can be found on any new car today.

The reason The '94 Williams was such a dog for the first part of the season is because Williams ventured into new ground and pioneered the active suspension (which was subsequently banned). This was a radical new idea and Williams were openly criticized for running this unproven technology and not saving it until the next season. Williams proved their critics wrong and by the end of the season had the best car on the track (turns out the suspension wasnt schumacher proof )

It always amuses me when old timers will talk about how things used to be and are too ignorent to change with the sport.

JB. Aged 20

It amuses me greatly when some callow youth opens his mouth and proves how little he really knows about F1.
'Active' suspension was 'pioneered' by Lotus in 1986 and run on the 1987 car, at the same time Williams introduced their 'Re-Active' suspension (Lotus got all huffy about Williams using the 'Active' description) which was the same thing.
Williams developed it for their useless 1988 FW12, and continued to do so up to the 1993 FW15, probably the most technically advanced F1 car built.
Of course, it was banned for 1994, and even Newey admitted that they made a mess of the FW16 by trying to be too clever with the rear suspension in particular.
Far from 'pioneering' anything in 1994 they were atempting to get back to some basic engineering principles and failing.
Now, what were you saying about people being 'ignorant'??
If you insist on spouting your 'expert' opinion, you might just get your facts right before proving yourself a complete 'me' generation clod.

[Craig.]

actually Wombat, it was the FW14b that was considered the most technologically advanced car. Its even written on the plaque next to the car at the Donnington museum.

[wombat666]

actually Wombat, it was the FW14b that was considered the most technologically advanced car. Its even written on the plaque next to the car at the Donnington museum.

I wouldn't give any credence to anything connected to Tom Wheatcroft .... he's a bit liberal with the truth regarding many of the cars in his collection.
Sean Kelly and Andy Matthews are much more connected on this subject and if you want to split hairs, the FW15C is the high tech version.
Donnington has several cars on display that are obviously (to anyone who knows the subject) not what they purport to be.
A '1941 Auto Union' comes readily to mind, as does the 'Alfa Romeo Bi-Motore', the former is a fantasy and the latter a replica.
My own "GT40" is always referred to as a 'GT40R' ....... it is a replica, I know because I built it.

Now, what was I saying about being sure of the real facts?
More research required.

[Mushroom_Farmer]

Attention audience members......

May I have you attention please........

Paul Tracy has left this topic.......

Thank you very much.........

[The Ruptured Duck]

Oh crap, I'm too drunk to read all of that up there.  I think I will just continue my rant that I began on Monday.  I watched the race replay (I wish I could have watched it live but those ****ers at the airport told me to work) and the Tagliani incedent was not his fault.  But the Bourdais incedent was.

Just him an MS are the worst kind of people.  Paul got out of the car and into an interview where he blaimed Sebastian for "wanting 2 points so bad"  OF COURSE HE WANTS TWO POINTS, HE IS RACING FOR THE TITLE,AND PT IS NOT.  PT would have done the same thing if he was in Bourdais's place.

My favorite part of the post race interview was when he said "you know, those frenchmen don't take their helmets off (in a fight)"  Did anybody see Paul racing to take his helmet off?  What a load of bull.

Anyways, I don't like MS's outlook on life.  Winning is not everything.  If I was a F1 driver, I would be thrilled to drive badass cars and get paid millions.  Who needs 8 titles and more money than you can handle, when you  could have none, work less, and actually have a sense of the value of a dollar.

Well like I said, I'm pretty drunk, so I may change my mind tomarrow afternoon, although I probobly will not like either Paul or Michael.

[PisTon]

I'm sure Shoe Maker has won all 89 races from luck  ::)

Rofl.