Bass is on.

[Fozzer]

I agree Zaph..

About a banjo, listen to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0HWiqViPCk

Its not so much the left hand fingering (that's mainly fingered chords) that is complicated, its the right hand fingering routing that takes some mastering, on a 5-string Banjo!

The same with my 6-string guitar, and 4-string Ukulele...

Just imagine the complex nerve-train from the brain to the finger tips, and back again!... ...!

Paul...aka; "Fingers Fozz".... ... ...!

[Zaphod]

Fozz...
You might like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbopOSW5wQU

We came across this guy, Fabio Zini while we were on a cruise a year or so ago. He was so popular they put on extra shows.

Zaph....

[Bass]

Now that is exelent playing, tks Zaphod!!

Then my question goes, what site of the brain controls left or right hand?

Why i'm asking is, chiropodist's clames that left foot is controlling left site of the body, and versus., but "brain controllers" clames that left site controlles right site of the body and vs!!

I've asked this question several times in the past, but noone has given a plausible answer! (to me that is)

[Fozzer]

.....Whats a; "Brain"?.... ..!

Paul....Mr. Brain's Faggots... ...!

My Brain mostly says to me;..."Feed Me!"

[Apex]

As a musician, guitar and keyboards, I've often wondered how we figure it out. As a guitarist, it was mostly conscious learning, that is, I knew what my hands were doing at all times, with rock, jazz, and classical. As a keyboardist, but Baroque classical only (Bach, Telemann, Scarlatti), I've noticed that I play best when I don't know what my hands are doing, that is, playing subconsciously, usually reading the music, but not thinking about what I'm doing, sort of watching someone else. Or watching TV, which actually works as a distractive device.

Someone once asked me, do you ever practice (classical guitar) in the dark? Another interesting practice routine. Actually, I haven't, but with classical keyboards, I am moving towards being able to "Play Bach in the Dark". I can by now read one line, for example, treble clef, and ignore reading the bass clef while not missing a note on either clef. So I don't know what my left hand is doing, or how it knows what to do, but it's doing it just fine. There are also times, many times, that I can ignore large parts of the music entirely and still keep going. Those times are becoming more and more frequent.

The great pianist Glenn Gould was able to do a first reading of a manuscript away from the piano, then play it perfectly on the piano the first time around without the manuscript.

And then this: I actually knew this guy, his name was Bob M., a guitar instructor at the music store where we both taught in the 70's. He had been playing only two years and didn't know a heck of a lot, no gig experience of course. But he had a strange ability regarding the guitar. We would play a little game sometimes: "Play any major or minor chord in any inversion anywhere on the guitar neck, and I'll tell you the chord name and position on the neck that you're playing it at." He never, never, missed it. It was really incredible seeing this phenomonem.

Now if I may be excused, the Wizard of Oz is on the telly, it's time for, "If I only had a brain."

[Zaphod]

This thread has become very fascinating.
Whilst I can't really offer an opinion on how the brain functions, I am a firm believer in "Muscle memory". The ability of the muscles to learn a complicated series of moves after repeated actions.
I'm sure we have all struggled at first to learn a new piece only to find it becomes increasingly easier with practice to the point where we hardly have to engage the brain to play a complicated series of notes or chords. This, I believe is what makes some of the great performances seem so effortless, along with a huge amount of skill and talent of course.

Just a thought (from the brain, not the muscles.)

Zaphod

[Bass]

.....Whats a; "Brain"?.... ..!

Paul....Mr. Brain's Faggots... ...!

My Brain mostly says to me;..."Feed Me!"

Brain...
My wife ask me: "Where are you going?"
I say: "Dont know, yet".
She says: "Take me home before you go wild".
I Say: "Ok, point the GPS home".

[Bass]

As a musician, guitar and keyboards, I've often wondered how we figure it out. As a guitarist, it was mostly conscious learning, that is, I knew what my hands were doing at all times, with rock, jazz, and classical. As a keyboardist, but Baroque classical only (Bach, Telemann, Scarlatti), I've noticed that I play best when I don't know what my hands are doing, that is, playing subconsciously, usually reading the music, but not thinking about what I'm doing, sort of watching someone else. Or watching TV, which actually works as a distractive device.

Someone once asked me, do you ever practice (classical guitar) in the dark? Another interesting practice routine. Actually, I haven't, but with classical keyboards, I am moving towards being able to "Play Bach in the Dark". I can by now read one line, for example, treble clef, and ignore reading the bass clef while not missing a note on either clef. So I don't know what my left hand is doing, or how it knows what to do, but it's doing it just fine. There are also times, many times, that I can ignore large parts of the music entirely and still keep going. Those times are becoming more and more frequent.

The great pianist Glenn Gould was able to do a first reading of a manuscript away from the piano, then play it perfectly on the piano the first time around without the manuscript.

And then this: I actually knew this guy, his name was Bob M., a guitar instructor at the music store where we both taught in the 70's. He had been playing only two years and didn't know a heck of a lot, no gig experience of course. But he had a strange ability regarding the guitar. We would play a little game sometimes: "Play any major or minor chord in any inversion anywhere on the guitar neck, and I'll tell you the chord name and position on the neck that you're playing it at." He never, never, missed it. It was really incredible seeing this phenomonem.

Now if I may be excused, the Wizard of Oz is on the telly, it's time for, "If I only had a brain."

This is very interesting reading Apex.
THANK you very much.

Your story about Bob M., i can recognize. Some few had that much "feelings" with instruments, that chords or notes dosn't matter, but the feeling, sound, room, freinds and brain/fingers could make them play anything!!

[Bass]

This thread has become very fascinating.
Whilst I can't really offer an opinion on how the brain functions, I am a firm believer in "Muscle memory". The ability of the muscles to learn a complicated series of moves after repeated actions.
I'm sure we have all struggled at first to learn a new piece only to find it becomes increasingly easier with practice to the point where we hardly have to engage the brain to play a complicated series of notes or chords. This, I believe is what makes some of the great performances seem so effortless, along with a huge amount of skill and talent of course.

Just a thought (from the brain, not the muscles.)

Zaphod

Yes Zaphod, i surely remember the struggle learning news, and then the habit takes over, but "the muscle memory" is still controlled from somewhere brain function!
Not that i'm going deeper into this, but i also find it very fascinating

[Zaphod]

Yea,
I think without the old "Muscle Memory" I would never have learned to ride a bike, a motorcycle, drive a car, play lots of musical instruments and probably never produced kids (but that's another story)
Here's to Muscle Memory

Zaphod.

[Bass]

The producing of kids is surely a muscle memory

Here's Booker T & the MG's with their greatest. (The music is original!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtdMhh1jIvw

[Apex]

I just remembered something else. Again, back to my guitar teaching days, the 70's, for 7 years. Many students came and went, but 4 stood out among them: GS, JW, LH, and JR. Age at starting: GS=8; JW=11; LH=15, all males. JR=24, female, and in last year of law school. These 4 students had one thing in common: At their very 1st lesson, they all were able to read notes, roughly of course, on the 1st 4 strings of the guitar, the top four. They each had very little motor control difficulties throughout their lessons with me. I got all of them into classical eventually, and the lack of motor control problems stayed with them. The youngest, GS, was pretty much a little genius, playing a Carcassi study and Bach's Bourree in Em (the one Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull made famous on their 'Stand Up' album) at the store's annual recital, when still 8 years old, full finger style technique. The others surprised me in other ways with their innate ability to deal with guitar learning issues. I take very little credit for this, they deserve it for themselves.

This changed my thoughts of 'muscle memory'. My classical guitar teacher back then once said to me, "It's not your muscles, it's your brain." He also said that "If you make playing errors while practicing and you don't stop to figure out what happened and to correct them, you are just programming those mistakes over and over again. What Zaphod said about muscle memory is correct tho, like weight training and running etc, it takes a certain amount of muscle memory, but ultimately it's our mental programming that does it. The ultimate in this would be the Glenn Gould thing, instant memory. For us mere mortals, it takes repeated practice and some suffering thereof to arrive at accomplishment. It's that repeated practice, the same stuff over and over again until it sinks in, that does it and also develops our muscle power. So for ex, I haven't played guitar in a few years. It would take a few weeks of practicing scales and whatever to get back to wherever I was when I stopped, but you never fully forget.

[Bass]

A good story Apex, and i must say, that teacher of yours back then, really knew what he was talking about!

When playing errors and then just continue, that error will be placed as a "fault on a HDD" (brain memory talking to muscles). I think everyone knows, how hard it is to change "habbits" when some speed is involved, and if you dont stop, start all over again with the brain focused on that fault, you sure will make it again!

I haven't played for many years, and i think i would have to start from scratch. Many things will be easier, when pulled out from the "HD", but again, some hard work to do!!

[Apex]

Yes, Bass, he did. ("That teacher of yours back then, really knew what he was talking about!"). I should pay tribute to him here, as he passed away in 09.2007, age 57. I found that out 2 years after, a real shocker. He was not only my classical guitar instructor, we became friends after I stopped lessons, he lived close by, convenient. He was directly responsible for my classical development, which also paid off via acoustic guitar, and such development even augmented my rock & subsequent jazz playing, enabling me to do fingerstyle jazz as well as straight picking.

We met by a pure accident of fate, just for the heck of it I took a CE guitar course in fall 1970 at Miami Dade College, the 1st teacher quit after 2 weeks, RB took over and said very plainly, "I teach classical guitar, period." When he saw I knew way more than the rest, he said to get Book One of the Sagreras Method. That method, via the School of Mercadal (Juan Mercadal, U of Miami Chair of (the entire) Guitar Dept 1965 until his death in 1998) is what did it. Sagreras is somewhat frowned upon by other schools, but Mercadal could outplay anyone anywhere anytime, so take your pick of classical guitar methods. That was his way of teaching. 6 books, and if you can make it to Book Six, good luck (Yes, I did.)

A side note: Mercadal required 2 years of classical guitar for the jazz guitar majors. Mercadal could play anything from the classical guitar repertoire by memory (including the entire Sagreras Method. I would actually see some demonstration of this at the UM Guitar Forums, which I was priveleged to attend, even tho not a student there). If a student was struggling to play a piece, or simply if Mercadal wanted to demo something about the piece, he would grab the student's guitar and just show everyone how it was done. Mercadal was a good teacher and most reasonable person, he knew me via another friend who was studying with him, but when it came to guitar, he was untouchable and had the very last word. Word somehow got around town and some other colleges that his playing style was "fast and sloppy", but that was the negative and very jealous college rumor mill back then. Fast and furious was more like it.

[Hagar]

I just love this one. Please notice the Bass player, looks and sound like me when flying................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jv75_-SSWM

The bass player is the late Donald "Duck" Dunn who passed away almost 1 year ago. http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/news/blues-brothers-bassist-donald-duck-dunn-dies-at-70/

The guitarist is Steve Cropper.