Simviation Forums

A bit of a legal minefield?? At what point now does as passenger have responsibility for the driver or how the car is being driven. If you lend your car to someone and they break the law should you be responsible (though here in Germany you are and can get the same points or fine as the driver, your car, you are responsible for who you lend it to)

Man jailed for causing death by dangerous driving... even though he wasn't behind the wheel during crash

Matt

I believe there is a similar law here, and one that I think is on the border of ridiculous in most cases.

Now granted, if you loan your car to a person who has known mental issues, then you should be held responsible in some way,

In this case it seems fair...both of them were in the car, both had been drinking, and driving way to fast for the weather conditions.  Even drunk you should no better then to let another drunk take you home be it in your own vehicle or not.

Now if it was a case of someone loaning their car to a friend, and the friend causes a fatal accident without the owner present, then punishment would not be fair...unless you knew they didn't have a license to begin with and had been in prior trouble.  The only way punishment would be fairly dealt in that situation was if you loaned your car to say...your 13 year old kid, and they caused a crash, then punishment would be fit, you should know better then to let a kid that young drive.

...as an aside...

Its always a good idea to check if your Insurance is covered for other persons driving/riding your vehicle, with your permission.

My Insurance only covers ME riding MY Motorcycle, no one else!

(A much lower Insurance premium!)......!

Paul... ...!

I'm no legal beagle but "Dangerous Driving" does seem an odd charge if he wasn't actually driving the vehicle. Perhaps aiding & abetting would have been better. We'll see what happens after the inevitable appeal.

One interesting point. What's this about a "black box" data recorder mentioned in the report? Is this fitted to all Jaguar cars or what?

That law is akin to saying it's the gun makers fault that someone bought their product and shot someone,

I wouldn't call that a valid argument. The car manufacturers were never on trial.

Death by dangerous driving is the equivalent, under the Road Traffic Act, of Murder.

A little known piece of UK law is that of Joint Enterprise, of which the simple definition is that if you are present at a murder, even if you didn't commit the murder, you can be charged with murder if you encouraged or failed to discourage or walk away from the act or failed to report said act after the fact. (That is the very simple definition.)

I suppose that as Death by dangerous driving is the equivilent of Murder then the same article of law could apply. The gentleman involved did nothing to discourage or stop the woman from driving..... and being drunk yourself is no defence.

I always warn my passengers, if they are tossing around in my car while I am driving and cause an accident I will see to it they end up as accountable as myself. Always get one who doesn't seem to understand they are as accountable as anyone else in the car.

I'm no legal beagle but "Dangerous Driving" does seem an odd charge if he wasn't actually driving the vehicle. Perhaps aiding & abetting would have been better. We'll see what happens after the inevitable appeal.

One interesting point. What's this about a "black box" data recorder mentioned in the report? Is this fitted to all Jaguar cars or what?

That law is akin to saying it's the gun makers fault that someone bought their product and shot someone,

I wouldn't call that a valid argument. The car manufacturers were never on trial.

Actually more and more vehicles are being equipped with a type of "black box".  My significant other just purchased a new Jeep last weekend, and the owners manual states there is an event recorder or something like that, that can be used after an accident.

That law is akin to saying it's the gun makers fault that someone bought their product and shot someone,

I wouldn't call that a valid argument. The car manufacturers were never on trial.

It would be more like this hypothetical situation: I loan a gun to you and you use it to shoot someone. Am I responsible in some way? It's very circumstantial, if I knew that you intended to shoot someone and loaned you the gun anyway, then I would say yes. That type of thing would be hard to prove in court though.

It would be more like this hypothetical situation: I loan a gun to you and you use it to shoot someone. Am I responsible in some way? It's very circumstantial, if I knew that you intended to shoot someone and loaned you the gun anyway, then I would say yes. That type of thing would be hard to prove in court though.

Somewhat attention-getting to see you pick up on that subject. Quite some moons ago, someone told me about an event in his native locale. It was well-known that two particular men didn't get along (they weren't named Hatfield nor McCoy but a similar scenario) but both liked to go out hunting. One day the sheriff was called to the scene of an "accident": one of the two men had "...mistaken the other for a deer and ...shot him down from a tree branch."
The narrator's home area was Alton, Missouri. I do realize Alton is a ways south-southeast of you, near Arkansas, but...

It would be more like this hypothetical situation: I loan a gun to you and you use it to shoot someone. Am I responsible in some way? It's very circumstantial, if I knew that you intended to shoot someone and loaned you the gun anyway, then I would say yes. That type of thing would be hard to prove in court though.

Somewhat attention-getting to see you pick up on that subject. Quite some moons ago, someone told me about an event in his native locale. It was well-known that two particular men didn't get along (they weren't named Hatfield nor McCoy but a similar scenario) but both liked to go out hunting. One day the sheriff was called to the scene of an "accident": one of the two men had "...mistaken the other for a deer and ...shot him down from a tree branch."
The narrator's home area was Alton, Missouri. I do realize Alton is a ways south-southeast of you, near Arkansas, but...

8-)

I don't see how that compares with the case in question. Let's look at the facts. The owner of the car was in the passenger seat when it was involved in a fatal accident. Nobody disputes that. He was tried & found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving although he was not driving the car at the time of the accident. The driver had already been jailed for the same offence.

I don't know the full story but the case obviously hinges on the premise that the car owner knew his companion was unfit to drive when he gave her the car keys to drive them both home from a social event. I'm quite sure that nobody set out to hurt anyone.

I used a bad example there as related to the story above, and I wasn't trying to compare it to the individual case here, but rather the law that states you are responsible for what someone else does with your items. If you're not around to control it, I don't see how one could be held responsible for another persons free will actions, but in this particular case, the law was applied correctly I believe. 

 

That's a total bullshit case...

...with his BAC level, he couldn't make a judgment about his own driving abilities, let alone those of another.

Even with that aside, there is a fine ethical distinction between doing wrong, and failing to prevent the wrong doings of others. The latter is not wrong, and it shouldn't be a crime in a civilized country.

Suppose the woman was a homicidal maniac, the man does no wrong unless he knowingly aids her with the intent of aiding her in her homicidal quests. Now, good luck proving that he loaned her the car with the intent for her to kill those two youngsters.

Now, good luck proving that he loaned her the car with the intent for her to kill those two youngsters.

He didn't exactly loan her the car. She is described in the news reports as a fellow company director & partner. It doesn't elaborate on the latter but that could be business partner, girl-friend or both. Rather like asking your wife to drive you home after a party.

He has already been tried & sentenced so this means the case was proven. I'll be interested to see the results of the appeal.

In Belgium we don't have a points system. Also, unlike in the UK, if I permit you to drive my car, you are covered under my insurance... I find this system to be much better, indeed it's the cheapest way to get your car/motorcycle insured if you're under 25. Ask your parents to do it for you and permit you.