Simviation Forums

Reading the newspaper on saturday (i was bored) and found out that a boy aged only 16 was killed on his second solo. He had gained 14hrs flying time altogether (i think) and was a very talented student pilot. Apparently he was put into a situation by ATC that he couldnt keep control, in a result he stalled his aircraft.

and the even more worse thing was his father saw the whole thing. such ashame  :(

A query.... ;)...>>>>

Who has ultimate control over any given situation, (which may be an emergency)....

The Pilot of the Aircraft, or Air Traffic Control...?

Paul... 8-)...!

A query.... ;)...>>>>

Who has ultimate control over any given situation, (which may be an emergency)....

The Pilot of the Aircraft, or Air Traffic Control...?

Paul... 8-)...!

The Pilot.  Who has ultimate control over whether or not a pilot retains his/her license, the pilot or the FAA?

I suspect an inexperienced pilot will try to do exactly what the controller tells him to do and a good controller shouldn't tell an inexperienced pilot to do anything out of the ordinary, like attempt to assume an air speed or attitude that puts control of the craft at risk.

Alas due to the lawyer orientated society we live in these things will happen as the pilot is worried about getting done for disobeying ATC. Remember the Russian plane full of passengers and the DHL plane under Swiss ATC the other year?

Alas due to the lawyer orientated society we live in these things will happen as the pilot is worried about getting done for disobeying ATC.

Yeah, imagine how much it would stink being a pilot and having your on-the-spot split second decision being debated by expert witnesses and lawyers for years in a quiet, comfortable courtroom.  It's legally a lot less risky to follow ATC and hope for the best.  If you don't die then at least you've done nothing wrong and your career is probably better off for doing the stupid thing.

Alas that is the way of things these days Chris

I think you guys are getting distracted from the fact that it's been an awful tragedy that this young student has been killed - & for the father to see it must've been horrific.

TSC.

Sounds like the kid forgot to open his throttle back up...

...and not the ATC's fault at all...

If anything, its the instructor's fault...if the kid couldn't execute a simple "go around" order, he shouldn't have been allowed to solo in the first place...

If anything, its the instructor's fault...if the kid couldn't execute a simple "go around" order, he shouldn't have been allowed to solo in the first place...

Exactly, it is the instructor's responsibility to sign the student off as ready to solo, and if the instructor was on the ground worried that the student wouldn't know what to do, it sounds like he wasn't ready to solo yet.  The student should have known what a "go-around" is, and ATC has every right to issue a it at any time.  I don't know if it's the same across the pond, but for students in this situation, on initial call-up they can tell ATC that they're a student, and they should go relatively easy on them, but still, a go-around is a relatively basic maneuver that the student should have known, and the instructor should have taught.  It's an unfortunate situation, but at least people can learn from it.

I'm sorry but I have to agree, I severely doubt ATC would have asked him to do anything that would mean he was in a situation beyond his control. Have you ever heard a controller asking a GA aircraft to assume a certain airspeed in a pattern? I know I certainly never have.

In no way am I trying to take the pain of such an incident away from the family, but sadly it is yet another case of 'it's not my fault' and passing the blame onto someone innocent.

Alex

Alas due to the lawyer orientated society we live in these things will happen as the pilot is worried about getting done for disobeying ATC.

This could all have been avoided by two simple words:


GO AROUND


Sadly, ATC aware it was a solo, but unaware of it being his second solo (due to a controller change) tried to fly the aeroplane for him. If they'd given his the expessive order to "GO AROUND", and his flying school were worth their money (if he hadn't been taught how to do an academic go around/overshoot, he shouldn't have been solo) he would have known exactly what to do. Sadly ATC "got into the cockpit", and stretching his capacity, he eventually got to the point that he had no capacity to do the most important part - aviate, ie fly the aeroplane, and lost control. A lot of people seem to be jumping on the "did he have spin training before he went solo" bandwagon, but I'm afraid, at circuit height, and this level of experience it is somewhat irrelevant; to a) recognise, and b) safely recover from a spin from 1000ft or lower would be virtually impossible.

At least he will be remembered from the eyewitness statements reported in the press as saying "he bravely avoided the school/houses" etc. Sadly, if you read the full accident report, you see he'd lost control a long time before then.

The student should have known what a "go-around" is, and ATC has every right to issue a it at any time.

If anything, its the instructor's fault...if the kid couldn't execute a simple "go around" order

Just to qaulify what I've said above, and to clarify, the problem was that ATC didn't tell him to "go around". They basically told him to turn "north" whilst he was on finals runway direction was roughly west - east, and then gave verious other instructions, which the student (probably very obviously, and probably rightly, confused) questioned.

I agree that he shouldn't have been doing a solo if he couldn't do a go-around. That is a very basic and very common order by ATC. To be frank (and I know nothing about flying for students) 14 hours and already doing you second solo sounds way too little. I could suggest that the order to go-around came in too late or that he was flying too slow and when asked to go around couldn't make it. Still, it is a real tragedy and devasting for those that knew him.

[quote]Coming in to land, Sam received an instruction to perform a

He was specifically told to go around...

...and how is it the ATC's fault that the kid was too dumb to push in the throttle...?

Ok, the words "go around" (not lack of emphasis) appear once in the transcript, in the following long transmission to the student, which by the students response, was as clear as mud...

ATC: "G-BB Roger and er maintain runway centreline but go around er circuit height there's fast traffic behind to land" (Do you agree a simple G-BB GO AROUND would have been more effective?)

G-BB: "BB Maintain centreline" (no acknowledgement of the the hidden go around instruction, as he probably only remembered the completely inpertinant piece of information about the traffic behind him)

ATC: "Er G-BB disregard that, just take a left turn  and flynorth and I'll call you back in shortly" (so he's been told to maintain r/w centreline, now turn north, at no time has he yet acknowledged that he ought to be maintaining circuit height (bearing in mind he must have been below already as he was on finals))

After this there were various broken communication between ATC and the student, mainly due to the non standard calls, and the student probably working pretty hard...

As the full report quotes, at this point his instructor who was at the flying club building listening on the radio (SOP dictated a listening watch, but not transmitting at any time from the club) recalled: "becoming anxious that visibility was reducing in bright sunshine and haze. He was also concerned that the student would be unfamiliar with the instruction to turn north away from the final approach track and might find it bewildering...

As mentioned in the full report, no blame should, or rightly could be apportioned fairly to anyone, but [i]maybe one clear expression/order from ATC saying "G-BB GO AROUND" would have saved this young mans life.

for the full 28 pages:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/Cessna%20F150L,%20G-BABB%2007-07.pdf