Survival of US industry?

[Felix/FFDS]

Your question is quite valid.  

TO a point, it appears that the US economy *in general* has slowly been  turning from a producer to a service/ consumer.

I agree - I am surprised to see "Made in U.S.A." anymore on daily items I use.  Many products are designed in the US, but actually built elsewhere.

Outsourcing is almost a mantra - and one that may not necessarily be the best solution in all cases (I believe companies that have outsourced some service calls out of the country are bringing that function back).

Now, having said that, there are many "US" companies that are now either owned or heavily controlled by foreign companies.  CITGO, for example, is owned by PDVSA , the major oil company in Venezuela.  The list goes on.

One can question - has the age of nations come and gone?  Like nations, multi-nationals can be good or bad.  To a point, a multi-national company takes on the character of its nation of origin (and before one goes off arguing how US companies influence the world, remember, I work for a German company in the US), with a dressing of the country where it operates.

I have an (unproven) theory that pettly local politics aside, standardization/normalization between countries has always been more the result of commerce than any sense of "let's get together" between different peoples.

[Hagar]

[quote]Your question is quite valid.

[jordonj]

This is a problem that has hit my state particularly hard.  Last I knew (from those who run the Michigan WORKS! employment agencies), we lead the nation in unemployment.

I only just got the job I have now...and I still don't make enough to live on (though what I make is enough to disqualify me for several forms of state aid).  I had gone back to school in 1999 for computers, and when I finished in 2003. there were no jobs in that field.

One of the caseworkers at MW has on her desk a stack of files full of professional people that cannot find work (businesses don't want to hire overqualified people...making it hard to find work on the other end).

Another thing is that unemployment here in the US doesn't count those who have exhausted their benefits, found employment for peanuts (like as a clerk in The Gap), or have given up on looking.  It's probably much higher than what we hear.

And with programs to aid the poor facing deep cuts, I'm really starting to worry.

Kind of hard to keep politics out of this, but I did try mods!

[Romulus111VADT]

I know that when I call Dell customer service or their tech support. I get hopping mad when I'm forced to talk to someone in India. I just can't understand them and they don't seem to understand me. I'm far from a beginner at computers and when I call with a problem, I've already done most of the things that need to be done to diagnose the problem. They invariable treat me as if I'm some idiot and by the end of the conversation they discover the idiots are in India. I've actually taught some of their own techs some things they didn't know.

What really pisses me off is that Dell advertise their customer service and tech support with an American Tech. in their commercials. This to me is false advertising. Dells sales department is still based in the US, to the best of my knowledge.  ::)

[Triple_7]

and the loss of jobs is not helping at all.  Yes trade and foreign owned companies is a good thing untill it begins to control everthing.  I know the other week there was something in the news.  They were so happy that 25,000 new jobs had been brought to indiana this year.  Why be happy about it? there was around a half a million that left :-/  Not to mention the 30,000 from GM that are about to be lost.

I know there is a lot of companies that have now moved to Mexico.  Problem is that most of the factories around our area are eather there already or making plans to move :-/  Its nearly impossible to find jobs in this town anymore.  There simply isnt any that your application wont be buried in a stack of a hundred or more.

And the old "American" companies that claim to be completely American are really not.  I try to find cloths that are made here but thats getting hard to do.  All of my hunting cloths are from the Berne Apparel company.  They started in Berne, Indiana and claim to be american made.  Well..my bibs are made in the US.  But when i bought my coat i got home to find the tag says Made in Bangladesh >:(  I aint to happy.  Its not that its a huge deal, but when i pay $70 for something from a company claiming to be "all american" and find that......i was a little more then POed.

Or you have the companies like Carhartt that seem to have factories everywhere.  I always thought of them to be american made and top quality.  But my coat and bibs are made here in the US, and my sweatshirt and hat are made in Mexico >:(  The list goes on when it comes to companies claiming the Made in US mark and really they are anything but >:(

Its a crazy situation and doesnt seem to get any better.  Job market is suffering and yet theres nothing stopping companies from packing up and moving.  Living paycheck to paycheck isnt fun and when i lost one of my jobs to an illegal i about shot my boss.  And that is another thing we seem to have a major problem with in this area...Illegals...mostly from mexico.  There is a couple of buisnesses outside of town that are 90% illegal workers.  If something happens then they seem to dissapear and return with a new name and IDs.  The one place has 5 or six people who they keep hiring back even though they are on their 8th or 9th name :-/  Calling in the officials does no good.  They seem to no nothing about the 500 or so illegal people in this one housing section >:(  Funny how when there was a murder of an illegal awhile back how that whole section of trailers cleared out for a couple months :-/  And still the city officials claim there is no illegals here >:( >:(

And as Jordon brought up...there is plenty of "aid" for low income families...so they say.  As we have found out many of times if you so much as make $100 to much in a year they wont give it to you.  And has anyone found it irritating that for 99% of the aid forms they go by your gross income ???  What good does that do...its not what you accualy bring home after the taxes >:(  We used to qualifiy for a program called "Hoosier Healthwise" which basicaly pays for medications and doctor bills.  Well not long after we had it my mom got a whole 25 cent raise at work.  Sudenly she made to much to qualify and they dropped us within a week >:(  Its just making it that much harder for low income families to survive especialy when the "low income" jobs are begining to move south of the border :-/

[Hagar]

This is a very interesting subject which I've pondered on for a long time. Many years ago we were promised more leisure time due to the robots & automated processes doing repetitive menial tasks that nobody liked doing. What nobody seemed to consider was the effect on people previously employed on these tasks who relied on them for their living no matter how boring they might be. A machine will work 24 hours a day without complaining, going on strike or asking for a pay rise. Once it's been in use for a certain period of time it's paid for itself many times over. Meanwhile, the people it replaced might not be able to find alternative employment & exist on state benefits if they're lucky. We were also told that by the time we reached it the retirement age would have been reduced from 65 to 60 or even 55 & planned our retirement schemes on this forecast.

This is just one of the changes I've seen during my lifetime. Instead of more leisure time most people now have to work longer before being able to afford retirement. Due to less people being in work & the increased proportion of people of retirement age since then the government is seriously considering raising the retirement age in the UK from 65 to 69.

This is not all the politicians fault. During the 1960s & 70s the employees were often their own worst enemies, continually making unrealistic wage demands & bringing chaos by going on strike. This all contributed to the destruction of the manufacturing industry in this country as it was gradually moved to other places that did not have these problems.

I think this is a natural progression of our capitalist system. People are always striving for better standards of living. To do this involves earning good money to purchase goods at reasonable prices. Unfortunately it seems you can't have both as increased wages inevitably leads to a rise in price of the product. Meanwhile, another country with a lower standard of living can produce the same goods far cheaper. I'm no economist & have no answers so this is a simple observation. I have no idea where it will all end but think it's quite possible that the once powerful & wealthy manufacturing countries like my own might eventually end up as tourist attractions like some third world countries today.

[ozzy72]

I think this is one of those globalisation signs, industry will always go with the biggest profits because that is what their share-holders want.
However an upshot of this is that countries that lagged far behind are catching up and making things a bit more equal for everyone.
Now I'm clever, I've moved to a country where my services as a native speaking teacher are greatly in demand..... no shortage of business Globalisation can be your friend if you know how to utilise it

[jordonj]

I'm working in an industry that is difficult to offshore (try getting someone in India to run cable here in Michigan).  

The thing that I've heard is that, in addition to the  "giant sucking sound" that is referred to jobs leaving the US, The standard of live in those countries where the jobs end up has not gone up, but has gone down.  

In addition, businesses don't follow safety standards in those countries and the workers suffer disfiguring wounds, repetitive stress injuries, etc. and get no access to health care.

If we are not careful, we may realize that all we enjoy has been built on the backs of the have-nots of the world...and this is nothing new either.

In my darkest moods, I wonder if the world is to end like those kooky magazines (you know...the ones with Elvis found alive...blah blah blah) keep saying.  Maybe that's what we deserve...

[Paz]

Top of the range Fender guitars are now manufactured exclusively in Japan while the cheaper Squier models they previously manufactured under license are now manufactured elsewhere, possibly Korea.

 I am not a Fender man myself, I prefer BC Rich and Jackson guitars which are both made in Korea anymore, these are the consumer affordable models. I would love to own a USA made Jackson or BC Rich guitar, I have been trying to watch for one on ebay, prices are between $1000.00 - $3000.00 on up for any guitars built in the USA, I just can't afford that.
Most of the guitars I own which are foreign made are of very good quality, I can't imagine why it costs 5 times as much to build one here, oh wait, could be built in union shops like the one I work in that allows countless well paid employees to basically just "show up" and do nothing for 60 hours a week, then when they increase production do they give these people something to do? Hell no, they bring in more people, cut the work loads (never for me) and allow more employees to pretty much enjoy a free ride, I have noticed that if you are a good worker you will be on jobs that require you to have to work your ass off, but if you show you are lazy and don't want to work, they will give you a "do nothing" job. Of course the union will not allow the company to terminate unproductive employees for some reason, it is nearly impossible to get fired from where I work regardless of how useless you may be to the company. I have never in all the companies I have ever worked for seen the kind of tolerance for useless employees as I have seen working in a union shop, it's no wonder so many companies are against unions.

[TacitBlue]

In my opinion, labor unions have no longer have a place in this country. When they first started, working conditions were bad, there was no such thing as benefits, and people would work 100 hours a week and still be in debt. Now we have enough laws to protect us from harsh working conditions, and what-not that unions are no longer of any use. I once saw a union go on strike because the company was bringing in contractors to do everyday maintenance while the actual maintenance men sat around and did NOTHING all day. According to the union, the company couldn't fire them for not doing their jobs, so what choice did they have? It wasn't just that, there were other equally ridiculous factors that went into that strike. What I'm getting at though is that unions are a major factor in what is happening to this country. Just my $0.2.
Most of you probably know that I don't ususally speak up the serious issues around here, but this is something that I feel strongly about.

[jordonj]

In my opinion, labor unions have no longer have a place in this country. When they first started, working conditions were bad, there was no such thing as benefits, and people would work 100 hours a week and still be in debt. Now we have enough laws to protect us from harsh working conditions, and what-not that unions are no longer of any use.

A different point of view:

I worked in jobs where the companies took advantage of where people might not know the law.  One would give one 15-minute break and a lunch...nothing else.  They would also harass employees for using the bathroom (this was made illegal).  I worked for several companies that would never give raises.

The recent Northern Michigan Hospital strike up here involved medical benefits, pay, and having more of a say in the care of patients.  The hospital refused to negotiate with the union, and brought in contract workers (spending much more than they would have spent had they just negotiated.  I've heard that NMH is one place you don't want to be in.

Conditions are still deplorable in many work places.  The way Wal-Mart often treats its employees is shameful.  For example, they don't pay overtime, despite the pressure they put on workers to work it.  They are being sued yet again for denying breaks to employees.

Now I don't profess that unions are saints and can do nothing wrong...I've seen them do some ridiculous things, similar to what you mention.  I think they have become a lot like the companies...guys out of touch with what their members need.  The mafia probably has a big grip on unions.

There are many here who work 60-80 hours a week, and still can't make ends meet (a big part of that is the fact that housing is unaffordable...also part of the reason bankruptcies are increasing).

Another thing is that CEOs, and upper-echlon officials are raping the companies they work for.  Stories of managers using companies as their own personal piggy-bank seem to be a lot more widespread in recent years (Enron being a glaring example).  Overall, CEOs are paid 500 times what employees make.

Part of it can also be summed up in this quote from the movie Platoon:

Man, the poor always been screwed ovah by the rich...always have and always will.

[TacitBlue]

Ahh the CEOs! don't get me started. I know not all CEOs are like this, but how many times have you heard of a company laying off half of its workforce while at the same time giving all of the execs $500,000 raises? That is just plain sickening. :-/

[Hagar]

There is still a place for unions as some employers will take every opportunity they can to avoid their responsibilities to their employees. The problem is that, like any similar organisation, unions are a prime target for extremist factions. The ordinary members rarely attend union meetings & grudgingly pay their dues every week expecting to be looked after if the need arises. Meanwhile the extremists among them make sure they attend every meeting & these are the people elected to run it from the union boss to the shop stewards. This was one of the reasons for the demise of the British manufacturing industry I mentioned earlier.

I've always worked for small companies that generally treat their employees far better than the large corporations.

[H]

(businesses don't want to hire overqualified people...making it hard to find work on the other end)

That's about how I wound up on meager subsistence. Once you've applied for unemployment here, there is a set time before it's mandatory to take "Job Search" classes. I couldn't keep quiet when the intructor said, "You'll probably encounter the statement, 'You're not qualified...'"
"Not qualified! I keep getting told I'm overqualified. One interviewer told me that 'even if we did hire you, you'd have to sign a contract that you wouldn't leave for five years.' I asked him, 'where would I go? Every other employer is telling me the same thing you do!' And that was a starting job only a dollar above minimum wage."

During the 1960s & 70s the employees were often their own worst enemies, continually making unrealistic wage demands & bringing chaos by going on strike. This all contributed to the destruction of the manufacturing industry in this country as it was gradually moved to other places that did not have these problems.
Unfortunately it seems you can't have both as increased wages inevitably leads to a rise in price of the product.

Quite. Increased wages will generate increased prices, so you're effectively right back where you started (or worse) and the circle goes on (it didn't really stop with the 60s and 70s, just sort ebbs and flows -- or floods ).

[Paz]

the actual maintenance men sat around and did NOTHING all day. According to the union, the company couldn't fire them for not doing their jobs,

 I get to see this everyday, it's very frustrating trying to adapt to a work environment where people don't have to earn their pay and get away with acting like idiots often times endangering other employees in the process, many of us have complained but nothing ever changes, seems like the supervisors and even the safety reps have no authority at all thanks to the union, I was told early on that the union makes people untouchable and it's amazing how irresponsible people are allowed to act knowing this.