Discipline

[Deputy]

I'd like to start a thread just on the subject of discipline. How do you believe in disciplining children?



Personally, I don't like to use force. As many of you may know, domestic violence between partners/couples is at an all-time-high and rising. I feel that using the whip has a negative impact on the youth of today, in a sense, allowing them to grow up believing its okay to hit their spouse because he/she did something wrong. (Yes, he, there are males who are victims of domestic violence). It is my opinion that children should be punished by way of removing privileges that they have for a set ammount of time, whether it be tv time, phone, allowed to be out with friends,  having a few days of  solid work (chores) around the house.


That is, simply put, my view of how to dicipline children. How do you think "tough love" should be dished out?

[Paz]

 I used to get ass-whoopins' quite regularly while growing up, I'm not really sure whether or not it made any difference, my Mom always said I wasn't really a bad kid just very mouthy, (most of the really bad stuff I did She never found out about), I have learned to control that as I get older, but if I get really pissed off my mouth still has the tendency to work faster than my brain, but I didn't become a wife beater, I have never hit a woman in my life.

[eno]

This is the topic of a big debate here in the UK. The Government here has tried to ban smacking children but thankfully has watered down the measures.
Wether to smack a child should be up to the parents  dependant on the circumstances. Leaving bruises or constantly hitting a child should be considered abuse and delt with appropriately.

Two examples ..... a 2 year old who is constantly told not to do something which is going to eventually injure it. A short sharp smack on the back of the legs may just get the message across. A child of that age can not be reasoned with  and therefore something memorable should  work.

The same senario with a 5 year old and in theory you should be  able to reason with them, as they should have begun to understand cause and effect.

I am in a unique position, my wife is a child minder she is not allowed to smack the children she is minding and rightfully so. It becomes obvious from the childrens behaviour how they have been disiplined. A 3 year old who has only ever had someone try and reason with him, rather than give a short sharp shock, usually, is harder to deal with than a child of similar age, who knows that constantly pushing the boundarys can end in a slap on the wrist.

Kids need to have definate boundarys and thrive in situations where the boundarys are well defined. Trying to give younger children ideas beyond their understanding just leads to brattish behaviour and indicipline. Define  whats good and bad and enforce it reasonably, you will have a well ajusted child who respects others.

I was only ever smacked once, that I remember, as a child and I desereved it. My Father was subjected to both physical and sexual abuse by his parents to the point where he and his brother reported them to the police. This was back in the 1950's, his parents were imprisioned and my father and his 5 syblings were put in care. My father vowed never to treat any child that he had in the way he'd been treated. Therefore I know how much goading it took to get my father to hit me.

A short sharp shock occasionally doesn't do any child any harm. As long as the circumstances are reasonable and warrant it.

cheers
eno

[pete]

I got smacked as a kid - & will never forget the experiences nor forgive the lowlifes who administered it - week & pathetic cowards.

Parents who need to smack have simply lost it - it's a resort of simpletons who don't understand kids.

I have never even been tempted to raise my voice to my wonderful daughter - & the notion of hitting those innocent little limbs is just inconceivable.

In my view it should be seen as assault & a criminal act.

& if it's OK to hit a child - why not hit old folk?  ;D

[Politically Incorrect]

I was spanked, had my mouth washed out with soap etc.
And I think it did me good.
I don't belive in cold cocking a child but do feel that some sort of disipline is needed, it is obvious look at some of the kids today.
I am one of them men that Deputy refers to I had the living sh*t beat out of me on a daily basis by a woman for some God only nows reason I loved and stayed with for a year.
I never once struck back, I never hit women. Thing is this lady was never disaplined as a child, she was free to do as she willed. So this contridicts what other feel, that woman needs a ass whooping.

There is a difference in spanking a child and abusing a child, fact is too many are too stupid to know the difference.
I see nothing wrong with spanking a child and I also don't belive that a child who is spanked will grow up into a mass murderer or woman beater. Parents need to learn that they are the boss not the child, it is the parents job too teach their children the differance of right and wrong.
And it is the parents job to punish a child in order to teach that.
Too many parents leave it to others to raise thier children this is where the problems start, Parents are too busy to raise and take care of the kids, they have no clue as too what the kids are doing, they expect the Government and others to "protect" them and when something does go wrong there is always someone or something to blame.

If you are or are planning on being a parent then it is up to you to be involved in your childs life, it is up to you to use common sense to disipline them, it is up to you to make certain that your job isn't more important than your child, it is up too you to know what it is that your child does after school, on the weekends, out with friends etc.
It is you that are wholeheartedly responsible for your childs actions
Don't leave it up to no one else to raise the child and teach them right and wrong, because when you do that is where the problem starts.
When you have a child you are there 24/7 no matter what and if that isn't possible think twice before becoming a parent

In other words I don't want your kids so don't be burdoning me to watch out for them

[Hagar]

I wasn't going to enter this debate as my opinions on this subject are usually misinterpreted & I'm made out to be some sort of monster. I had a wonderful childhood & was fortunate to have loving, caring parents who never laid a hand on me. They didn't have to as they knew I respected them & by doing so I earned their trust. However, if they'd had reason to punish me I would undoubtedly have deserved it & would have accepted it. I brought up my own daughter in exactly the same way. She knew that if she did anything that deserved it I would have slapped her, not that I ever did or needed to. It would have been over & done with & soon forgotten. This is quite different from deliberately assaulting a child & I have no sympathy for the craven cowards that do this. There are plenty of those people around.

Unfortunately not every child is as fortunate as me or my daughter & some have parents who regularly abuse them for goodness know why. Most of them never wanted to be parents in the first place but seem to breed like rabbits. This is the reason for some groups lobbying for legislation banning physical punishment in any form. I was once against this but the more I read of the suffering of defenceless children, sometimes tiny babies, by their violent, cowardly parents, the more I'm inclined to agree with it. I'm not a violent person but they should let me alone with these people for a few minutes & I would show them what a whupping is.

[eno]

Both Fret and Doug have made good points.

A lot of parents expect others to bring up their children and when their children get out of control they blame everyone else.
 As I said in my post  Kids need boundarys, the laying down of those boundarys is the responsibility of the parents, not teachers ... social workers... police men or grandparents.
Smacking in the form of a tap on the back of the legs or a tap on the back of the hand I don't see as abuse.
Here in the UK we have the highest teenage pregnancy rates in  Europe. Whilst most of them become fantastic parents, many of these young girls are barely more than children themselves and come from broken and disfunctional homes.Their babies are used as currency to get benefits and homes. These kids just perpetuate the cycle of abuse as they have never been taught right from wrong and what proper discipline is, so how are they expected to know how to discipline their own babies.

To answer Pete's question as to why we don't smack old people ... at least, for the most part, you can reason with old folk. You can't reason with a 3 year old ... I know I have to attempt it, every day, with my disabled 12 year old step daughter, who has a mental age of 3ish. I have never hit her and never will. However her mother has had to on a couple of occasions,  she didn't like having to and felt guilty afterwards. On both occasions it was necessary to diffuse what could have become dangerous situations. It was soon forgotten and  no harm was done.  My step daughter now understands that when mummy starts to raise her voice it's for a good reason and maybe she should alter her behaviour.
To put it at it's bluntest its a bit like teaching a dog to do tricks ... reward the good behaviour and punish the bad behaviour.  In these times it's so often said that  good behaviour goes un-noticed and bad behaviour leads to rewards.

[Saitek]

Some good points (and bad ones ) there.
I believe sharp taps enough to bring a child to their senses works wonders. I HATE and DISAGREE with whippings. That's totally different from a smack with the hand.

Now, I'm no parent BUT, I and my two sisters had a different upbringing to my brother.
I was smacked/tapped and it did me tonnes of good and I learnt to obey. I knew it was fair and if I said it was unfair it was becuase I was annoyed at being found. I knew I deserved it.

NOW, my brother has been brought up without hardly knowing a smack. It is so rare. He is so rude and so shocking that I never would have even dreamed of thinking the things he shouts at me and my parents. He won't come or do certain things when I would have made sure I was there on the spot when I was younger.
He has punichments like No pudding, no computer for a day, no sweets today. Soppy punishments that don't hurt and although unpleasant have no effect in stopping him.

I am adamant against child abuse and want everyone taht does so brought to justice, but tell me. If people abuse children now, do you think they will stop under a smacking law? No.

Bring back the days of tougher sentences for crimes and better upbringings for children. I can assure you, poor upbringing by parents is the cause for so much crime today. Very often it is the fault of the parents - not the children that they are the way they are.

Just my thoughts. Don't be offended anyone!

ben

[Woodlouse2002]

When I was really bad then for me it would result in a quick slap across the arse. Hard enough to hurt but not hard enough to leave any sort of mark. And did it do me any harm? I think not!


Now where did I put my gun.....?

[gn85]

I'm going to try to make this short.

I'm a school teacher.  I've met MANY parents and of course worked with many children.  Naturally, I don't like child abuse.  I must report suspected child abuse to authorities, by law!  I can lose my job if I don't.  In my career of working with children, which spans about 15 years now, I have had to report a few cases of 'suspected' abuse.  I've worked with protective services and written tons of paper work to make sure children are protected.  

Now, with that being said.  I still do feel that children do deserve some sort of discipline, including smacks of the hand and light spankings (although there have actually been cases where this is reported as sexual abuse).  However, as I've worked with kids, I've really seen how some parents are these days and how they allow their children to completely run the house.  I've had parents ask me to 'talk' to their child and make the child listen to the parents.  To me, that is when a parent has really let things get out of hand and has not shown their children any boundaries what so ever.  I honestly feel that many parents are so worried that their children are going to like them that they don't want to discipline them.  

OK, I don't want to rant on too long on this topic.  But those are my thoughts.

[Hagar]

I have to agree with Eno & gn85. Their comments come from a long experience of bringing up children, both from the parent's & teacher's points of view. They confirm my own opinions on this subject. Children like to know where they stand & which rules & boundaries they're not allowed to cross. I'm sure that Ben & Woody would agree with me.

I haven't voted as I dislike the word "spanking". This to me conveys premeditated punishment which I believe is wrong. In my young days it was all too common to hear a mother say to her misbehaving child, "Just wait till your father comes home & he will give you a thrashing". I never knew whether this happened or not but it would have been far better for her to have given the child a slap herself there & then. IMHO To my mind fear has no place in bringing up children. Discipline to me means respect, love & trust. Nobody teaches you to be a parent, let alone a good one. Everybody has their own ideas & methods & must do what they think best, within reason. I tried to lead by example & fortunately think I succeeded.

Discipline has to be taught from an early age & there's no point in leaving it until they're teenagers. In my experience, if you love & respect your child it will be returned tenfold. My biggest problem with the anti-spanking brigade is that many have no children of their own. However well-intentioned they are, & I'm sure they have the best of intentions, I'm afraid that the legislation they're after would make decent, caring & loving parents like me into criminals.

[Romulus111VADT]

I am a product of child abuse and there are many forms of child abuse. Physical abuse depending on it's severity will eventually heal. But metal torture is a far more evasive form of abuse. It doesn't show wounds or scars outwardly. But when a child is constantly ridiculed as being stupid, worthless and told that they will never amount to anything, these types of statements will stick with a child for life.

I know, my father would swing from a slap on the butt attention getters. To all out serve whippings with a belt, switch, flyswatter and even a pancake turner. This went on for years and normally when my mom wasn't around. Until the day in a complete rage, he back handed me so hard that it knocked me off the stairs I was sitting on. I was holding a glass of soda and it was knocked out of my hand and smashed all over the floor. He was so enraged that he took out his belt and beat me. This was normal except that he'd failed to realize that he had the wrong end of the belt and had been beating me with the buckle. Needless to say, I was badly injured and was bleeding all over my back and legs. He also forgot that my mother was in the kitchen. My mom all but

[eno]

Sorry to hear that Romulus.. My Father was in much the same position as you and at the age of 13 him and his brother (15)went to the police. Both of his parents were imprisoned for several years,  which was rare in the early 50s.  They had systematically abused my Father his brother and his 4 sisters the youngest of which was only a baby.
My Father grew up to be a well ajusted adult and brought me and my sister up in the best and most loving way.

At first he never talked about his parents and we didn't meet them untill we were much older and after he had told us what had happened. By this time he had come to terms with what had happened  but never really forgave them. The family had been split up and my father and his brother had suffered more abuse in the care home that they went to.  My father has only recently told my mother exactly what happened in his youth and I suppose  when he feels comfortable about it he will tell me and my sister.

I know the mental scars will take a longer to heal but they can be overcome. I think the whole moral of this is be honest with people about what has happened to you especially those closest you you,  at least then they may be able to understand when seemingly trivial things freak you out. My father is in his mid 60s now and I think he is finally banishing the ghosts from the past. He  never hid what happened to him from myself or my sister although he only told us more detail when we were old enough to understand. I'm sure that there is still some stuff that he hasn't told us but I'm assured by my mother that he's told her everything.

Keep strong
eno

[Jared]

Ah, reminds me of a funny story..

Once upon a time when I was about 14-15 years old I did something so bad I can't even remember what it was...something stupid I'm sure, and my mom said wait until your father gets home...

So he came home, found out what I'd done and began to lash at me with his belt... When the tip of the belt broke off he turned it around and used the buckle.  

Later that night I was feeding the cats feeling pretty confident that my beating was over, nope I was wrong..

Came up behind me and went to paddle me hard...well what's a childs first instinct? Why to pu their hands between their butt and the offendign hand...well lucky for me I had a rather large metal can of cat food in one hand....needless to say I was in even more trouble...I didn't mean to do it I swear..

What's the moral of the story? Why my poor father hasn't had any trouble with me since then, not because I'm afraid, but I think we both grew up that day.... ;-)

I'm not for it in any sense, but I do agree that it can be used effectively if nothing else works..

Just my two cents.. ;-)

[Saitek]

Romulus and eno's story's make me tremble. It really chokes  me too to try and reaosn how people can be like that. However, I think it is important that a balance is kept. We must be careful not to run to the extreme. Outruling physical punishment completely is wrong.

If one sticks to the hand the likelyhood of abuse is estremely cut. When one moves to a belt - then I'm afraid I'm extremely concerned as is demonstrated above. But if you use your hand then it'll hurt too much if you hit too hard anyway.

My Dad only used the belt once or twice - I think it was on my sisters. It was really always an option, there to make us behave. - It worked too!