whoops

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whoops

Postby Craig. » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:00 pm

found this quite interesting. Trying to get some more news sources to confirm it, but i have seen a couple of small time new reports about it, to warrent at least posting it.

The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history.

But that is history now!

Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future.


All i can say on the part of the F-15 crew is, Whoops:)
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Re: whoops

Postby Jaffa » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:21 pm

Not really surprising...kind of like a F-16 up against a Phantom...one is just out of it's realm.

Don't worry.  The F-22 and for that matter JSF is coming! :D
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Re: whoops

Postby Craig. » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:18 am

in that sort of case the F-22 isnt as manuverable as the Eurofighter. Thats why they have missiles:)
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Re: whoops

Postby Ivan » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:11 am

Wrong comparision, diffrent roles
Multirole (F-15E)vs air superiority (EF Typhoon)...
Either you do it good (F-15C) or you don't do it

Lets compare to machines in equal roles: F-15E against the Su-32FN?
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Re: whoops

Postby Craig. » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:29 am

not a comparison though. These F-15 pilots knew what they were doing, they tried to engage some trainee's and it bit them in the ass:) It wouldnt have mattered what version of the F-15 they were flying it wouldnt have been any differant, thus the reason they have the two new fighters being brought in:)
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Re: whoops

Postby Hagar » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:14 am

they tried to engage some trainee's and it bit them in the ass:)

I assume these weren't ordinary trainees but highly experienced combat pilots - most likely instructors themselves. It stands to reason that the RAF wouldn't let your average rookie mess around with their new expensive toy. ::)
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Re: whoops

Postby Craig. » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:17 am

since i dont know how they are going about their pilot assignments i will assume they are being transitioned onto the Eurofighter from the tornado and jaguars, right now. either waay as far as that planes concerned they are still trainees
Last edited by Craig. on Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: whoops

Postby Polynomial » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:35 am

good news i gather
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Re: whoops

Postby denishc » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:04 am

 The only reason I call unfair is the age differances between the two aircraft.  The F-15 is very much a product of the 1970s, while the EuroFighter is of the 1990s.  Much in aircraft design has changed since the F-15 first went on line and the introduction of the Typhoon.  I'm really not sure of this but isn't the EuroFighter smaller and lighter then the F-15?  This could account for the Typhoon out turning the Eagle.  So how would the Typhoon do up against the smaller F-16?  For that matter how well would a F-15 do up aginst a F-16?  But either way had it been a missle engagment I doubt the Typhoons would have known what hit them.
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Re: whoops

Postby Craig. » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:23 am

the eurofighter has beaten the F-16 in a wargames enviroment before. The only aircraft it has lost to was the F-22,, i am not sure of the exact situation but i believe the F-22 got it from a distance with a missile before it was spotted.
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Re: whoops

Postby Felix/FFDS » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:41 am

I think there's a new kid on the block.  The design of the Typhoon II (I maintain that the Hawker is the "original") is a product of lessons learned of the excellent F-14/16/18, JAguar, Tornado, Mirage series of aircraft, combined with the technologies of the 90s.

- as is the F-22.

Now you have to consider the design/operational philosophies of both design groups, as to how effective would, say, an F-22 be against a Typhoon2, in ACM vs a long distance missle engagement.  I've always considered the American design philosophy to that of using a slashing, thrusting sabre, vs my view of the European philosophy of using a slice and dice rapier, and closing for the kill. (Not that these are absolutes, mind you).
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Re: whoops

Postby denishc » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:43 am

the eurofighter has beaten the F-16 in a wargames enviroment before.


 
 Really, I was unaware that the two had met.  Although the F-15 has had a long and outstanding service, the encounter with the EuroFighters is a very good reason to bring the F-22 on line ASAP!

P.S.:  See we can have a reasonable debate without tempers flairing and having the topic "locked".
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Re: whoops

Postby denishc » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:18 am

 Felix has a point, the latest European designed aircraft were built to beat the best the west had to offer, especially in ACM.  But while the European engineers chose the canard layout, the U.S. went with stealth for their next generation of aircraft.
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