Thunderbolt Squadron Question

[ozzy72]

Last night I saw, for about the 4th time, the History Channel Special on the Thunderbolt, during the last months of the War. I taped it and watched it again to make sure of my facts - or at least, History Channel's facts).

This particular Doco mainly contains footage from a colour 'Movie' that was commissioned by the USAAF, during the month of April and early May, in France and Germany.
It deals with a particular Fighter group (48 planes), the 362nd Thunderbolt Group (I think - I can check if anyone is specifically interested) based in Eastern France and then in Frankfurt. A major part of the film is about the 'crossing of the Rhine', in which this Squadron played a pivotal role in terms of ground support.
They have a couple of the Pilots who were in the Squadron at that time, as guest 'commentators' etc.

The Doco is called "Thunderbolts - Last Days of the Reich".  ;D

Anyway, before I go into any discussion about these amazing Planes, and their Pilots, I have a peculiar (at least I think it may be peculiar) question to ask. I would appreciate any insight that anyone may have.  ;D

Much of the film shows P47's flying in formation, breaking, diving and firing on targets etc. The majority of the time 4 planes are shown, or groups of 4 (flights I believe they were officially called i.e. 4 x flights = 1 squardon of 16 etc).
Anyway, it seems almost always, the four P47's consist of 3 bubble canopy types and 1 razorback type.
I thought maybe, I was seeing the same group of four, over and over again, but when I checked, I noticed different tail and nose colours and markings on nearly all of them.
In fact, there is one shot where you can make out clearly, a full Squadron. It's taken from the air. There are four planes flying over to the right of the field, four just taken off, four on the runway, and four taxiing.
Each group has one Razorback type, and the rest are Bubbles.
What's more interesting is that all the Bubbles are silver with coloured tails and noses, and all the razors are Army green with coloured tails and noses.

What is the story here, if any?

Is there something a Razor can do that a bubble can't, or vice versa.
The only thing I can think of is they wanted to 'disperse' the razors, with their poorer visibility, among all the flights.

It seems to me that if I had four out of 16 planes green and of a different type, I would have them in the same flight and the other three flights would be silver bubbles.
Maybe I'm just a 'neat freak'..........lol

I'm not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if out of the entire 48 planes there is an exact ration of 1 in 4 razors.

(Just a point of interest, for discussion, they quoted an average of 25 personnel to keep one plane in the air, at that time in the War).  ;D  ;)

[HawkerTempest5]

I've not seen this docco, but I have seen Thunderbolt, the colour movie shot in Italy late in the war. In this film too, there is a mix of types, bubble top and razor back. My thought is that they just used what they had and maybe the razors are replacement aircraft from a maintenance unit brought up to replace lost/damaged newer aircraft. Just a thought!

[ozzy72]

Probably its to do with the distribution of new aircraft, and doing it evenly. Or like Roger said, availability.

Mark

[denishc]

Professor B,
 Can you tell what position in the flight of four that the Razorback P-47s are flying in.  Certainly olive drab Razorbacks are older aircraft then the Bubble Topped silver ones and during a time of transition from old to new to have a mix of aircraft models was not unusual.  Perhaps the older model P-47s were handed down to "Newbies" while the newer models went to "Old Hands", as the newer models became available.  If the Razorbacks are always "flying wing" then I would assume this is the case.

[Sock]

Well, the 9th Air Force got the new 47s second to the 8th.  So they didn't get the 25+ models till later.  The Razorbacks were painted olive drab because the USAAF thought it was the best mix of all ground colors.  By the wars end the Planes were coming off the line in the natural metal, 'silver', color because it took less time to get 'em to the front if you didn't paint them.  But they were basicly flyin tin foul!  The sun reflected off them that way, and they were easy to spot campaired to the camifloged British and German planes.  The paint on the nose and tail where squadron markings, and nose art.  The 'Old Hands' weren't always given the new planes.  Sometimes they were so in love with the older models they were relucent to fly a new plane.  Maybe they scored their first or fith kill in it, or maybe they were nearly shot down in it, but the plane got them home.  

The USAAF mainly used the 'Finger Four' formation, and I have no idea why the ravorbacks always fly tail-end charlie in the movie...But, maybe thats the way it worked.  

Sock

P.S.  Brensec, could send me a copy of that movie?    I've only seen it once before and it was a while ago.  

[OTTOL]

Just as my 2cents......The "old plane/new pilot " theory makes the most sense to me. You would want the "kids" in the more expendable aircraft, and the greenhorns would be flying in the back of the formation. Sock's favorite airplane argument holds water, there was a lot of superstition involved with flying back then, but I think, more rare, was THIS case.
  Time for me to dig into the archives, and do some research.  :)

[Professor Brensec]

I don't recall exactly where the razorback plane flies in each of the flights. oir even if there is a 'constant position'. if they are always in the same spot, I suppose there is a reason for it, as mentioned.

I'm at work now, so I'll check when I'm finished on Monday (I do 2 x 12 hrs shifts Sat & Sun, so there's not much time to do it till then).  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

I've not seen this docco, but I have seen Thunderbolt, the colour movie shot in Italy late in the war. In this film too, there is a mix of types, bubble top and razor back. My thought is that they just used what they had and maybe the razors are replacement aircraft from a maintenance unit brought up to replace lost/damaged newer aircraft. Just a thought!

I think I've seen a colour Movie made in Italy also. But I'm sure it was about P51's.
There's probably a few that were made.

This one is definitely in Europe, in the places I mentioned. Oh, and I checked, it's definitely the 362nd Fighter Group.

Another interesting thing covered in the Movie. There was apparently a "Big offensive" day organised, to "knock the Luftwaffe out, once and for all".
I don't recall the day, but the figures they gave are: 905 German aircraft destroyed. In one day.

How could they ever have recovered from that?
Obviously they couldn't, and didn't!  ;D

[Sock]

Well, then I'll say one more thing... It would make no sense to put the razorbacks in the tail-end Charlie position because they have the least visiblity, and that is the most likely spot to get hit from.  You'd want someone with a 360 degree vantige point.

As for my story of a favorte aircraft "holding water", I can quote a book I have about a 9th Air Force Thunderbolt fighter-bomber squadron.  They author takes an older razorback model instead of a newer model with the bubble canopy and a paddle blade prop, because when ever he flew that perticular Jug, he never got a single hole in the plane.  But that plane was later fitted with a baddle blade prop.

Sock

[Professor Brensec]

I imagine the pilots would have become quite attached to a particular plane, especially if they had spent some reasonable time in it, and survived.  ;D

Tell me, did the newer bubble type have a more powerful R2800 engine, or any feature that would have made it all that better than a Razorback. Except for the visibility, of course.

If you consider the visibility question as a real disadvantgae, then this could well be why the Razorbacks were dispersed among the bubbles. So that there were 3 bubbles around, to look out for the plane with less visibility........maybe?.  ;D

[OTTOL]

As for my story of a favorte aircraft "holding water", I can quote a book I have about a 9th Air Force Thunderbolt fighter-bomber squadron.  They author takes an older razorback model instead of a newer model with the bubble canopy and a paddle blade prop, because when ever he flew that perticular Jug, he never got a single hole in the plane..........................

Sock

Uh............I was agreeing with you dude!

[HawkerTempest5]

Bubble top "Jugs" suffered from the exact same problem as bubble top P-51's and Spitfires. The cut down rear fuselage gave less lateral stability than the high sided razorback versions. Later 51's and 47's had fin extensions fitted to help overcome this problem. Spits grew bigger tails. A lot of P-51 pilots were less than happy to give up their B/C models for newer D's because the B/C was faster and better handling. This could be the case with the Jugs also. Maybe the fact that a few razor backs are mixed in is because the pilot simply would rather have that type instead?

[fido]

[Sock]

Sorry OTTOL...

Hawk:  The P-47-25+ moldels did have stabilty probkems but much less than the P-51D.  As far as I know (which is'nt much on the 51) is that it never had a significant engine upgrade where large amounts of power were added.  You also need to remember that the 51 isn't as stable as the 47, which is good for a fighter, but the Jug was very stable from the start, and the bubble canopy didn't affect it as much.  And over the years the 47 got big boosts in power!  And became more and more power, sorta...The M models were the fastest Thunderbolts, but had a bad bach of engines.  So power was toned down a bit on the Ns.  The N was the biggest and badest of 'em all.  It wasn't as fast as the M, but was faster than all the rest.  It had a longer wing and squared off wing tips for some longer legs, and the biggest dorsal fin.  And it was the most manoverable.  But I can tell you this, The P-47 pilots were a lot more enthuseastic (Jezz I cannot spell for beans) about the new models than the P-51 pilots were.  Because each new model ofered more improvements than each new model P-51 did.

Fido:  You're more than right, and I doupt you repeated anything.  If anyone did, I must have.

Sock

[denishc]

 Weren't the P-47Ns the lightest of the Thunderbolts and given longer range for use in the Pacific Theater?