Can machines of war honor victims of genocide?

[Wing Nut]

This is a very good question.

[Smoke2much]

I think they can.  The article states that the Israeli pilots were flying the formation with the missing 4th 'plane.  This is a well recognised memorial by pilots and in no way signifies military might.  The choice of modern fighter bombers (F-15's) may be a statement of "Never again" but is this not reasonable in this case?

Will

[Scottler]

Also remember that those in the military aren't pro-war, as many suggest.  In fact, most of the military (the sane portion anyway) hopes war to be an absolute last resort, and would prefer other means of resolution.
While one may view a fighter jet as a means of war, many more see it for what it is....a means of peace.

[Professor Brensec]

In short, the machines also freed them, so why shouldn't they honour them?

After reading the article, I'm inclined to agree with the 'Fly over". The Museum representative saying that Military hardware is representative of ONLY war in a public forum, like a newspaer, especally about a sloemn event is a bit narrow minded.

It's like saying that anything Military, like uniforms, is representative of war and destruction.
I'm sure that the initial creation of the Military in any country has always been in the name of, or for the purpose of ensuring or maintaining Peace.

Military displays, parades and passes are not usually meant as a show of might. They are usually more to do with commemoration, pride and sometimes 'pomp and ceremony'.
Only when they are Politically motivated are they usually a demonstration of strength or threat.

We have RSL (Returned Services League) clubs in the many hundreds, all over Australia. They were formed after WWI and became even more popular after WWII.
They all display cannon or AAA guns out the front of the premises. I'm not sure if other countries have the same types of clubs. They are basically they same as Football clubs, gambling clubs etc, where people become members and go to drink, relax, have a meal, play a sport etc.

In the front foyer of my local RSL is a 'scroll' with a quote on it (I'm not sure who it is attributed to - maybe someone knows).
The quote is: "The price of peace is eternal vigilance"

I certainly see the military as an instrument more of peace than of war. Although, war is one of the unfortunate jobs of the military, maybe this Museum bloke would do well to remember that those very same 'Military Machines' are also responsible for liberating Auschwitz and hundreds of other places of suffering and the men that wore the uniforms of those military units died to do just that.

[Ivan]

It's just the fact that israel did it

When they were celebrating 50 years D-Day, how much airshows were given above the beaches... lots, with modern (probably Patrouille de France)and historical machines (RAF memorial flight if i'm correct)

For the liberation festival in holland they used to grab an Orion from Valkenburg to buzz Alkmaar

[Professor Brensec]

It's just the fact that israel did it

When they were celebrating 50 years D-Day, how much airshows were given above the beaches... lots, with modern (probably Patrouille de France)and historical machines (RAF memorial flight if i'm correct)

For the liberation festival in holland they used to grab an Orion from Valkenburg to buzz Alkmaar

I imagine all this occurs because people in general would be inclined to realise that, although their destuctive power is frightening and has been responsible for much death and misery, ultimately they were the instruments of Liberation and freedom.

P.S. I have noticed that Pippin, when first posting this topic, has demonstrated a leaning towards 'understanding' the attitude of the Museum, as it is reported in the article.
I, in no way, meant to infer that because of that 'understanding' he was 'narrow minded' like the fellow from the Museum.
It's one thing to express an opinion honestly, based on beliefs or your own attitudes, but for the Museum to publically 'mar' the event and question the sincerity of the 'Fly over' and those who organised it, in print, is quite different.  ;D

[Smoke2much]

The people that make the largest sacrifice in war time are usually the armed forces.  To commemorate their sacrifice we have many memorials, fly pasts etc.

I cannot see how this is differant, are we to stop the Battle of Britain flypast because of the suffering caused by the three aircraft that take part?  The largest population to suffer in the death camps was Jewish.  For this reason the only Jewish state commemorates their loss.  The people who perform the commemoration on behalf of the nation are the military.

This occured at Auschewitz, I think that one of the telling aspects of this ply past is that they were joined by members of the Polish airforce for the event.  That speaks volumes.

Will

[Professor Brensec]

The part of the article I can't seem to understand is the bit where they refer to 'Anti-semitism being still difficult to uproot in Poland, since the war, after hundreds of years' and the bit about 'Debates between Poles and Jews being emotionally charged'.
Surely, you would imagine, that after what they all went through in WWII they would have let that stuff go.

I feel so sad when I realise that what the world went through, especially the whole of Europe, as far as racial hatred etc goes, that it could sometimes almost have been for nothing.

[Wing Nut]

Brensac, I took no offense at all.

[Professor Brensec]

Thanks for your understanding, mate. I don't know you all that well, so I'm always careful not to offend (and fail miserably.........lol )

I agree that it would certainly be a wonderful place if we could all do away with any kind of Military and the need for it. But as you say, it's terribly naive of anyone to think it is possible.
Imagine all the money that could be spent on feeding people and curing disease and easing all kinds of suffering for all kinds of people............

I also am very interested and fascinated by things military, especially from WWII, not so much the newer stuff. But I am also aware that it was a time of great suffering for the entire world, and more so for certain parts.
For every book or film I've seen to satisfy my fascination for the Planes and hardware, I've seen one to satisfy my need to understand the Historical aspects, the mistakes that were made and the terrible need Man has developed in the last few centuries, to go to war every 20 or 30 years.

Catch you later...........

[Wing Nut]

Did you notice I edited myself?  :)

[Professor Brensec]

I did just now. I was at work when I posted last. It was the end of a 14 hour shift. I arranged to do last night for 14 hrs so I could have today to spend with my kids who have arranged to be here for my Birthday and Fathers Day.

Your editing makes my last post look a bit.............lost. People won't know what I'm going on about.
If Ozzy saw what I just wrote, he would say "same 'ol, same 'ol. Who ever understands anyway!"...............lol

Back to your question. The War dead and those who suffered, be they military or not, must be remembered. Memorials do that to a degree. Virtually every town in Australia has one. I understand they are in virtually every town in the US and UK also. I know France have man,, to there own and to the foreign countries who fought there, especially in WWI.

Many of these memorials are stone or concrete obelisks, and plaque type arrangements, but also many are in the form of an artillery piece or tank (I think there's a tank at the bridge in France that the British held.................ahhhhh, Pegasus bridge. (Maybe not, not sure), but anyway. Certainly here, just around the corner from me is the RSL club (which I mentioned earlier) which has a '25 pounder' and a 40 mm AAA Gun out front, with a 'Lest We Forget' plaque.
Our National monument is the Australian War Memorial. Many see it as a 'museum' but it's a consecreated memorial and the rules with regard to Photos, films and personal behaviour etc apply. The 'Unknown Soldier's Tomb' is there. It's full of every item of warfare from the Boar War to the Gulf. Tanks, Planes, Japanese Midget Subs from Sydney Harbour all the way down to Uniforms of almost every major Service from every major Country.
And of course, walls lined with the names of every man and woman who died in Service.

So, having visited and seen this place, and all the memorials all over the coubntry since I was a child, the thought of Military items and paraphenalia used as a means to honour the War dead is natural to me.

I thought that Auschwitz and Birkenau etc were kept standing as a memorial to those who perished their. Is this true? If so, then they are representative of the same kind of suffering as the military items.

Gees, I have gone on a bit, haven't I? Sorry. Anyway, this is the first I've ever heard of the concept being questioned, in print or any other part of the media.

[chomp_rock]

What an idea! I never thought of this! I agree with pippin what a very logical idea.

[Smoke2much]

I've noticed that my posts on this subject look as if I'm being a little aggressive.  Sorry guys, I wasn't intending it to come accross this way.



Will

[Wing Nut]

There is no doubt that the intent here is good.  But I don't think it matters which machine killed whom.  These are machines of war.  They have one purpose in life and that is to kill.  To use weapons to honor those killed by weapons makes no sense.  

As far as these machines winning the freedom for those who died;  they did nothing.  Those people are dead.  They were not freed, they died in captivity.  Also, the machines may have helped win the war, but since war is inherently a failure of civilization in the first place, then where is the honor?