The Pledge of Allegiance

[beefhole]

But you bring up the age old question marlin-who gets to define "morality"?

Is it more God?  More secularism?  Kindness, charity or taking care of yourself?  Who gets to set the universal standard? Not everyone accepts everyone else's views of good virtues and morals. Free throught is one of the primary reasons for the break down of what is traditionally considered "good morals."

(I personally do not believe in morality)

[Marlin]

From Webster edition 1828. The only edition that I use. http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/we ... ts_web1828

MORAL'ITY, n. The doctrine or system of moral duties, or the duties of men in their social character; ethics.


The system of morality to be gathered from the writings of ancient sages, falls very short of that delivered in the gospel.

1. The practice of the moral duties; virtue. We often admire the politeness of men whose morality we question.

2. The quality of an action which renders it good; the conformity of an act to the divine law, or to the principles of rectitude. This conformity implies that the act must be performed by a free agent, and from a motive of obedience to the divine will. This is the strict theological and scriptural sense of morality. But we often apply the word to actions which accord with justice and human laws, without reference to the motives form which they proceed.

[Hagar]

Hagar, if you read the links that I posted, you would have seen such sources such as the BBC, the UN, some human rights groups. And the list goes on.

That doesn't change the fact that a single source can quote what suits their argument without giving a balanced view.

As far as the Constitution being twist around to fit the need of the day, that is what I'm TOTALLY against. It was written the way it was for a reason. I guess that it is so simple to understand, that people can't understand it. If the founding fathers were alive today, I think that there would be a bunch of prosecutions and stiff penalties dished out to all sorts of law makers and judges. Both from the past, and present.

I don't know much about the Founding Fathers & they might have been the most learned & wisest legal minds of their day in their own country.* I'm sure that they could not possibly have imagined what their country would be like now when they drew up the Constitution in 1788. Things have changed beyond all imagination & they obviously realised this & deliberately left it open to interpretation & amendment when necessary. This is how all legislation is drawn up & the debate on the proposed European Constitution right now shows how difficult this can be. This is nothing to do with me. It's your country & you have every right to run it in the way you think best but I think it's a mistake to treat something written in the 18th century as set in stone.

[quote]In my opinion Hagar, it is true that the morality level has been slipping and will continue to slip until such a time when parents stand up and do what it takes it instill morality into there kids. Or 'the people' stand up and force the Govt. to take the moral high ground. We don

[bbstackerf]

Just some intresting tidbits I thought were appropriate.

As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments.


As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see on the wall, right above bench where the Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments.

James Madison, 4th President of the United States:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, a patriot and Founding Father of our country said:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Each session of Congress begins with a paid preacher whos salary has been paid by the American taxpayer since 1777.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy
'the rule of few over many'.

John Jay, 'First' Supreme Court Justice of The United States:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

Inside the chamber of the United States House of Representatives is a marble engraving of Moses.

If you look, a good portion of official United States government buildings and monuments in Washington DC, have bible verses engraved on them.

Now I didn't post this to start a debate. Soley for the purpose of illustrating how the intentions of the Fore Fathers can be interpreted. Not necessarily THE correct interpretation, but just a view according to what might be considered a logical conclusion.

Keni

[Hagar]

Very interesting Keni. I think the Ten Commandments is a good code for anyone to live by whether they're religious or not. I imagine most religions have something similar. I was very surprised to read that this is in fact banned from being taught or discussed in some American schools. I can't see how anyone can possibly object to that.

PS. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c04.htm

[bbstackerf]

Yes it is, Hagar.  It's been found to be "Unconstitutional". :-/

Who knows why. I don't bother to try anymore. That's the kind of thinking taking over the country anymore. What can one do though? Taking a stand on the issue only brings confrontation. I've learned my lesson that trying to convince someone when arguing politics or religion is pointless. Fact is if you're actually able to convince someone he wasn't passionate enough in the first place about his views to be worthy.

Keni

[Hagar]

I've learned my lesson that trying to convince someone when arguing politics or religion is pointless. Fact is if you're actually able to convince someone he wasn't passionate enough in the first place about his views to be worthy.

Keni

I know only too well that it's a waste of time trying to discuss politics & religion sensibly. Nothing I or anyone else says is likely to change anyone's mind. Most people have such deeply ingrained feelings on these subjects that they're convinced they are the only ones in the right & everyone else is wrong. That's the reason these two subjects are discouraged on this forum. Unfortunately I can only see the situation getting worse unless people are prepared to sit down & discuss these things.

[bbstackerf]

Lesser things have caused wars and many have died. We are only human and prone to habit. Change is hard and sometimes I think we regard giving in even if only in agreemment as capitulation.  Wars fought over religion are the worst kind because the peace treaties don't change anything. They just mean the shooting has stopped...for now.

Keni

[TacitBlue]

Someone mentioned a religious group in Kansas protesting in front of a restaurant because one the employees is a lesbian. I know who they are. They have a problem with Saint Joseph, where I live, because the city recently passed a law prohibiting protests at or near funerals. This group was going to all of the military funerals and picketing because they believe that military deaths are divine punishment against the whole USA for being tolerant of people who aren't carbon copies of them. ::)

Edit:
I have more to say on that issue. It pisses me off beyond belief that anyone could be that intolerant and self righteous. In fact I can't express it well enough to satisfy myself. What ever happened to forgiveness?

[bbstackerf]

There are extremists in every culture, faith, society or what have you. I get whooped up on all the time for saying this but I believe intolerance can be attributed to either ignorance and or low intelligence. I may not agree with you (not you personnaly), but that's called an opinion and is my right. When you seek to either physically intimidate or vocally persecute me because of that difference then you're encroaching on the rights of others. At one time I could probably be said to be guilty of this. But the years have softened my views (and head).

Wether it be against gays, races, cultures, your beliefs on pro life or freedom of choice...bigotry in any form just makes no intelligent sense.

But, we can't all tie our own shoes and play well with others in class. We're all human, just not all humane.

Keni

[beefhole]

Very interesting Keni. I think the Ten Commandments is a good code for anyone to live by whether they're religious or not. I imagine most religions have something similar. I was very surprised to read that this is in fact banned from being taught or discussed in some American schools. I can't see how anyone can possibly object to that.

Urm I gotta tell you Doug, while saying "under God" in the pledge is an extremely petty fight to pick, I would definitely not want the ten commandments taught to me in school, with the exception of course being a philosophy or theology class.  If I planned on living my life by them, I'd learn them in Church school.  I personally do not agree with the moral code the ten commandments put forth, and know many other like myself. It's not (shouldn't be) the school's job to guide you towards a certain set of morals and values, rather it should be the parents or religion you belong to that helps shape them-with you, of course, eventually deciding for yourself in the end.

The schools really aren't supposed to be teaching morals anyway, it's kind of up to the parents.

[bbstackerf]

Used as a guideline I don't think there's anything wrong with the Ten Commandments. After all aren't they just common sense? Isn't it wrong to kill, steal, or lie? Some, like the one about keeping the sabath, obviously thats purely a religious thing, but for the most part just generally just a guide (not a law) to living life. As for being taught in school, maybe as part of the lessons in an elective on Christianity or religious history.


Keni

[beefhole]

UAfter all aren't they just common sense? Isn't it wrong to kill, steal, or lie?

You see, that's just the thing.  Since I don't believe in any universal moral code, I only hold the morals that are necessary for society to exist.  Therefore, of course, murder is out.  But I have absolutely no problem lying, and no problem with stealing in select situations.

When people consider it common sense for everyone is when problems arise, because it simply isn't.

[bbstackerf]

Well I'd be a liar if I said I never lied. As for stealing,  a pack of gum or a soda at a 7 Eleven as kid, a smoke or two when I had bad cravings. But I mean like armed robery or perjury in a court. Reason I'm so hard about stealing is I've been robbed twice. The situations I'm talking about are those where could have or may have been harmed - physically or mentally.

You yourself said, "I only hold the morals that are necessary for society to exist." Don't think any society could exist if we were all thieves.

Any way getting back to the point. You feel the way you do and me being a complete stranger, I have a snowball's chance in hell of convincing you of anything contrary so I will digress. I bid you peace and prosperity in all you do.

Keni

[beefhole]

I strongly considered editing my post to include further explanation, but you did me a favor and brought it up

I was refering more to integrity than I was to crimes.

For example-I see no moral dilemna in cheating on a test at school.  Who the hell cares?  It doesn't hurt anyone around me, it simply benefits me.  I don't have to cheat because I'm smart, but I wouldn't mind doing it at all.

It should be noted that I believe cheating in college is a big no-no, considering you're training for a specific proffession.

And I'm not trying to convince anyone here-what I do is present the other side.  I have absolutely no right to say that my belief system is correct, I just make people aware that it exists.