The Pledge of Allegiance

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby Marlin » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:48 pm

"""Other groups who are tortured for their "deviant behavior" include members of the Falun Gong spiritual movement, members of the Uighur ethnic minority in Xinjiang and Christians who are members of illegal underground churches, he said."""
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 3243.shtml

"""Why Are Members of Falun Gong Tortured to Death?"""   """According to that BBC Beijing correspondent I have quoted above: "The Chinese state holds a personal dossier on every single on of its citizens - it's called a Dang An. You can never see it - you don't know what it contains - but it can control your destiny. A black mark against you - a bad school report, a disagreement with your boss, a visit to a psychiatrist - all can travel with you for the rest of your life."""

More?
Headline"""Chinese Police Raid Human Rights Group"
"China routinely detains human rights, religious and other activists in advance of major political events in order to prevent protests or attempts to meet with visiting foreign officials"""
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 3152.shtml

"""China Detains U.S. Church Workers"
"Nevertheless, up to 50 million Chinese are believed to worship in unofficial Protestant congregations, called "house churches" since meetings often take place in private homes.""" http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 5215.shtml

China Struggles With Tibetan Buddhism
The Chinese government deeply distrusts religion as pulling allegiance away from the ruling Communist Party http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 4928.shtml

"We welcome the U.S. congressional subcommittee inquiry, and hope that Mr. Chen is able to provide information about the genocide of Falun Gong practitioners by the CCP, and the persecution of overseas Falun Gong practitioners by Chinese Embassies and Consulates."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005 ... 0051.shtml


Alright now, this is just under six months of stories that I have found with a very fast search. At ONLY one site. So it doesn't really matter what they say, its what they do do.

Freedom under communism? come on now ::)

I can find a lot more it you want me too!! I'd be more than happy to back up anything in my statement above.

Thanks for the question Hagar.
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby beefhole » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:53 pm

But we now agree that China has no official state religion, correct? (remember, communism=religion bad!, see my post below Doug's if you missed it)
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby bbstackerf » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:15 pm

From what I've seen in researching a bit according to the US State Department's study on religious freedoms, China remains an "Officially Atheist State", and while there are no state sponsored religions their constitution provides for freedom of religion with a multi tude of "restrictions". If any one church can be singled out it would be Taoism.

But hey, I'm Roman Catholic, but I can't even say the rosary. ;D

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby Marlin » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:36 pm

"""But we now agree that China has now official state religion, correct? (remember, communism=religion bad!, see my post below Doug's if you missed it) """

Through there actions, yes, I would have to agree that there is a state sponsored religion.

Now this goes back to the quote that I posted from Madison as an example of what happens when there is a state sponsored church/religion. For a lot of people, this was the reason that they came to the United States, or one of the thirteen colonies. Hence the whole purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance.

So no matter what any wants to believe, there is nothing in this country that even comes close to a state sponsored religion. Especially after reading the Constitution, the federalist papers and the history behind this country. I mean come on, they PRAY at the beginning of all the sections of congress. Always have. But this goes back to, what church is being sponsored if they pray? Especially if there is a differant priest every time. (I'll not state that as fact, but I think that is what they do.)

But I
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby beefhole » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:46 pm

To clarify, a "w" sneaked in there somehow.  I meant to say NO state religion.

marlin I don't see how you can discern a state sponsored religion in China-they may favor one over the rest, that doesn't make it state sponsored.  Maybe I misunderstood your post.

I didn't see your post as an attack marlin, I saw it as a misinterpretation of what I was trying to get across.  Sorry, where did I post "athiest"? (are you refering to an older post a long time ago?)
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby Hagar » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:01 pm

This is getting too deep for me as I have little knowledge of China or the arguments in the US regarding the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't see much difference in pledging allegiance to the state in a democracy or communist country. The result is the same & unites the people towards a common goal, whatever that might be. This obviously depends on the leaders or rulers of the country who are subject to change & a large number of people that swore allegiance to it might not always agree with everything that's done in their name either now or at some point in the future. I also think that Western countries are more influenced by religion than communist states where the leader is often worshipped more like a god. The difference being that you can actually see this god.

I realise the link I posted might be biased but as you mentioned Catholics I don't think they would be in any danger in China, at least not in Beijing.
The "cultural revolution'' (1966 to 1976) had a disastrous effect on all aspects of the society in China, including religion. But in the course of correcting the errors of the "cultural revolution'' governments at all levels made great efforts to revive and implement the policy of freedom of religious belief, redressed the unjust, false or wrong cases imposed on religious personages, and reopened sites for religious activities.

Since the 1980s, approximately 600 Protestant churches have been reopened or rebuilt each year in China. By the end of 1996 more than 18 million copies of the Bible had been printed, with special tax exemption treatment speeding their publication. In addition, more than eight million copies of a hymn book published by the China Christian Council in 1983 have been distributed. From 1958 to 1995, a total of 126 Catholic bishops were selected and ordained by the Chinese Catholic church itself. In the past dozen years more than 900 young Catholic priests have been trained or consecrated by Chinese Catholicism. More than 3,000 Protestants attend the Sunday service at Chongwenmen church in Beijing each week. The Beijing Nantang Catholic Cathedral observes Mass four times each week with an attendance of more than 2,000. Of these, one Mass is held in English specially for foreigners in Beijing.

From what I've seen of the Chinese Constitution it seems pretty sensible to me. Whether they keep to it is another matter but these things don't happen overnight.
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby Hagar » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:22 pm

Alright now, this is just under six months of stories that I have found with a very fast search. At ONLY one site. So it doesn't really matter what they say, its what they do do.

There's a lot of injustices in every country in the world, including my own. I could give you many examples but that would be against the rules of this forum which we seem to be pretty close to abusing already. The danger of researching from a single source is that it's inevitably biased towards some agenda. The bias of this one seems pretty obvious to me.
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby jordonj » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:34 pm

Ummm...some of the same could be said for Europe under Catholicism...people were burned at the stake for having different ideas.  Protestant regions in Europe and the US did the same.

Under McCarthy, people's lives were ruined because they did not agree with Joe's spew of hate.

And there are people who are fired because they may not belive as the owner of the company believes in terms of Christianity...

And guess what...there's nothing they can do about it because they are at-will employees.  This means they can be fired for any reason at all without notice.

I'm afraid that for most of my years I probably would have to fall in the "Right or Wrong" American category jordonj mentioned earlier.


For the record, I was responding about not understanding the American Patroit Mentality.

For histories sake, I have to say that at least one person has got it correct. That person would be  Felix/FFDS. There is NO separation of church and state in the constitution.


Here is what the first amendment says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


The term "Separation of Church and State" comes from a speech given by Thomas Jefferson o the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut in response to a rumor was that another denomination called the Congregationalists were to become the national religion.  To calm fears of religious persecution, Jefferson said:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.


The point was that they would be free to practice their version of Christianity.  But what has happened is that laws have been made based around a particular version of Christianity.  The thing about this is that it's all a two-way street.  If you want to be free to practice your version of Christianity, you must allow others who believe differently to practice theirs.  If you want your beliefs respected, you must respect the beliefs of others (to a degree...I don't condone the sexual abuse of women, which some extreme Mormon sects condone for example).

The fight also comes from those who try to force their beliefs on others (such as in the forms of "saving" or as another example, the Maglalene Asylums).  The "Under God" is another sticky point, and as Kevin and I both pointed out, was not a part of the original pledge.

Hence where we get the current debates.

I think that if we spent more time worrying about ourselves and less time worrying about what others believe, we would be a much better world.

Okay..ramble over!
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby bbstackerf » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:13 pm

jordon

I wasn't taking offense, just trying gracefully accept a well deserved label. ;D ;D

As for the whole issue of the constitution providing for separation of church and state, and the freedoms enjoyed by Americans to practice or not practice the faith of thier choice, there's always the other side of the coin in everything.

Would you agree that Jefferson and the rest of the founding fathers could not have envisioned where their laws or proclamtions would affect the future as it has evolved? In other words, do you think they would have allowed a Church of Satan if it had slithered out from under a rock in their day?

Lawyers and judges are quick to interpret (twist) the constitution as they see fit. God knows as it is written theres room for it. So many people are so ready to scream about 'freedom of speech', 'the right to bear arms', and other hot issues argued in America today.

I guess what my point is is that a society cannot exist without morality. It just seems that morality has been and is being traded, sold, and voted out in favor of legality.

PS This entire post will be interpreted as an opinion and not an arguement: my law. ;D ;D ;D

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby Hagar » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:29 pm

Lawyers and judges are quick to interpret (twist) the constitution as they see fit.

I think that's the problem we're increasingly faced with today. Too many people giving their own interpretation on what these old laws could mean instead of what anyone with a little common sense always understood they meant. If they need clarifying then they should be clarified. I hope that makes sense. ::)

I guess what my point is is that a society cannot exist without morality. It just seems that morality has been and is being traded, sold, and voted out in favor of legality.

That might be true & moral standards certainly appear to be slipping compared with when I was young. They're certainly different but there are many different interpretations on what is meant by morality. Who is to say what is right? Maybe it's time we put our own houses in order before criticising others.
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby bbstackerf » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:48 pm

Makes total sense to me. And I agree that my morality cannot serve as a guide for everyone else. Guess thats the great question, when is enough enough and who's right is right? Where do you draw the line? Live and let live?

I dunno, my friend. It's too much to ponder. I'm getting a headache thinking about. That's it, I think i'm in anguish. Where's my lawyer?

;D ;D

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby jordonj » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:04 pm

Would you agree that Jefferson and the rest of the founding fathers could not have envisioned where their laws or proclamtions would affect the future as it has evolved? In other words, do you think they would have allowed a Church of Satan if it had slithered out from under a rock in their day?


Funny you should mention that...I just came across a book about that church's founder (what a nut). ::)

But consider the other extreme...one only has to look as far as Colorado City...where 6th-grade girls are taken out of school and told by the prophet that they must marry a man twice or three times their age and their third or forth wife (and they don't wait to rape the new bride either...)
This is an extreme breakoff sect of Mormonism by the way and should not be confused with mainstream Mormonism...you won't find more ardent anti-polygamists than the Mormon Church!

Other examples...look at Iran or Saudi Arabia.  

Down in Kansas, there's a restaurant failing because an extremist group of Christians picket it.  The reason: one of their employees is a Lesbian.  Customers are getting tired of the Christian Extremists' harassment and going elsewhere.

I do believe that our founding fathers in America knew that the Revolutionary War did not rid our country of Religious Zealots whose aim in life was to make the rest of the world fall into step with their brand of Christianity.

So on your questions: no and probably not.  But do I believe they had thought ahead and were trying to prevent one sect from seizing power and turning America into a fanatical theocracy (like Iran, or what those extremist Colorado City Mormons have in mind)?  Yes.
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby bbstackerf » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:31 pm

Completey agree. That whole polygamist fiasco is always on the news here in Phoenix. One our local TV reporters has made it his mission to single-handedly take them down. ;D

And I have no problems agreeing that in their time theplans they laid down for has protected us through to this day from becoming a nation of Hari Krishnas (I don't think the bald look thing is very happ'nin on me. ;D

But I also feel their policies for the country were not enough to keep us protected from some nut proclaiming he talks to God through a cockroach either. ;D

Well hell you're no fun, we agree. ;D

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby Marlin » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:07 pm

Thanks everyone for there input.

Hagar, if you read the links that I posted, you would have seen such sources such as the BBC, the UN, some human rights groups. And the list goes on. But I don't really care if you read them or not. As I said this was, and I'll quote myself "ONLY one site" I'm sure if your interested enough, you'll do your own research, and if not that is fine by me.  8)

The rest of what you said was enough to put the whole thread to an end. Let me post the original post. """Out of interest, why do Americans have a "Pledge of Allegiance"?  I saw this story, on Rotten Dot Com, and it seems to me that it is rather Draconian to force students to pledge allegiance to the state, rather than to God directly, if at all. """

If there are still any questions about why anyone, anywhere would say a pledge to anything after reading your post there must be some sort of problem somewhere.

As far as the Constitution being twist around to fit the need of the day, that is what I'm TOTALLY against. It was written the way it was for a reason. I guess that it is so simple to understand, that people can't understand it. If the founding fathers were alive today, I think that there would be a bunch of prosecutions and stiff penalties dished out to all sorts of law makers and judges. Both from the past, and present.

In my opinion Hagar, it is true that the morality level has been slipping and will continue to slip until such a time when parents stand up and do what it takes it instill morality into there kids. Or 'the people' stand up and force the Govt. to take the moral high ground. We don
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Postby jordonj » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:18 pm

Actually Marlin, I just wanted to clarify what the First Amendment did say, and to point out where the phrase "seperation of Chuch and State" came from, and how it was related. ;D

Actually, I did have it wrong as it was a letter rather than a speech.

Check this site...

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Another view:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/c ... anbury.htm

I'm sure you can find others that may also argue against my point too.
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