The Shuttle was a MISTAKE?

[Hagar]

Right or wrong, this is the way I look at it & please remember that while many others might think like me this is purely my opinion.

The ocean is dangerous, yes & exploring it can be exceedingly risky. However, the sea is part of our natural environment & I see exploring both the surface & beneath it a perfectly natural thing to do. I can walk less than a mile from where I live & do it myself with no equipment or artificial support. I could build or purchase a boat & go off & explore it & even dive under the water & see some of what is below the surface. Of course, I can't go too deep or stay there for any length of time but with practice I can extend this considerably. I will also rise naturally to the surface when I can't hold my breath any longer. The pearl divers in some parts of the world often go to surprising depths & stay there for a considerable length of time.

Breath-hold diving is by it's very nature a potentially hazardous activity. It involves taking a deep breath and descending to a depth ranging from less than one metre to over 156 metres (Francesco Pepin -current Breath-hold Deep Diving Champion 1998 ) until the urge to breathe brings you back to the surface.
The origins of breath-hold diving are lost in antiquity. Already in 4500 BC underwater exploration had advanced from the first timid dives to an industry that supplied it's civilisation with shells, food and pearls.

Today Korean (Hae-Nyo), Japanese (Ama), sponge and pearl divers still rely on breath-hold diving to harvest a living from the sea. Through centuries of experience and years of training they have been able to extend bottom times at minimal risk and are of keen interest to physiologists. http://www.dansa.org/medical/breath.html

They are after the natural products of the sea, the creatures that live there, some of which we depend on for food. Sadly, human beings being what we are, greed has caused us to abuse our environment & over-fish the oceans which unless something is done about it soon will lead to the loss of yet another source of food.

Space on the other hand is an alien environment. Nothing resembling life forms familiar to us can possibly live there & I see no benefit in exploring it - except for our natural curiosity, like the people who go to the North Pole or climb mountains as a challenge. (Mt. Everest, at 29,035 feet above sea level the highest mountain in the World has been climbed without oxygen.) I have no objection to anyone doing this privately or perhaps with government, commercial or academic sponsorship. I believe that presenting a national manned space program, costing vast amounts of public money, as a scientific project in the interests of the whole of mankind is a complete fallacy & simply another political ploy to justify it to the people who fund it, the taxpayers. Governments all over the world do this all the time so it's not restricted to one country. I suspect that the space program has always had other & possibly more sinister purposes. It might benefit our knowledge of the universe & bring other technicological benefits but this could be done just as well & at far less cost without sending human beings there at all. That's all I'm saying & I've believed this for over 40 years.

The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that I'm right.

[Woodlouse2002]

Christopher took that risk when he sailed a boat across vast distances while others thought he was going to fall off the edge of the planet.

I've already stated that no one thought he was going to fall off the edge of the planet. So that is a moot point as far as this discussion goes.

[Fly2e]

I've already stated that no one thought he was going to fall off the edge of the planet. So that is a moot point as far as this discussion goes.

I fell off my bar stool last week and landed on another planet  

[Katahu]

Well, it is true that space is an alien environment.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind when I say this, but space is part of our environment [regardless] and it is where the time began.

Sooner or later, I don't care if it would be 100 years or 500 years from now, more and more people are gonna look up to the stars and say "I wanna see more of what's out there". So eventually, over time, people will want to leave this planet and go elsewhere.

The universe is infinite, and the secrets it holds can surprise us all. For example: how does dark matter look like and what does it do? How does it interact with the cosmos? Can one travel faster than the speed of light? So many questions. So many possibilities. The only way we can be certain is to actually leave the confines of this planet's atmosphere and look first hand.

If we stay here focusing on things we already know and not take challenges, how can we grow up?

[C]

Sooner or later, I don't care if it would be 100 years or 500 years from now, more and more people are gonna look up to the stars and say "I wanna see more of what's out there". So eventually, over time, people will want to leave this planet and go elsewhere.

I'm happy here thanks, for the same reason that I have no desire to become a submariner. Aeroplanes are as adventurous as I want to get!

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

I fell off my bar stool last week and landed on another planet

[Hagar]

Sooner or later, I don't care if it would be 100 years or 500 years from now, more and more people are gonna look up to the stars and say "I wanna see more of what's out there". So eventually, over time, people will want to leave this planet and go elsewhere.

I think you missed my main point Kat so I'll add a little postscript. Man has wanted to fly for thousands of years & this is mentioned in ancient legends like Greek mythology. They watched the birds flying freely in the air & wished they could imitate them. It took a very long time but due to the ingenuity of the Human race they finally succeeded.

The same can be said for beneath the sea. Some creatures are mammals like us yet spend their lives in the sea. The hippopotamus is a land animal but even gives birth below the water. The rather awkward & comical-looking penguin is transformed into a graceful creature when in its natural environment although it spends much of its life on dry land. Like all mammals they have to come to the surface eventually for air or they would drown.

The pioneers were thought of as eccentrics & people saw no value in what they were trying to do, imitate the life they saw around them. It's possible that some people have been dreaming of visiting outer space in the same way for the same amount of time. I wouldn't know about that but haven't seen it mentioned in legends or mythology so this might be a fairly recent thing. I class this as quite a different dream as no living creature that I know of can venture beyond our atmosphere & survive in space for even a few seconds. This means they have no precedent to go on. If no living creature can do it, why would we believe that we can?

As I said earlier, I have no wish to mock other people's dreams or prevent them doing whatever they wish - just as long as this is for the right motives.

[JBaymore]

If no living creature can do it, why would we belive that we can?

Why just because no living creature (on this planet) does this..... should we assume that we can not?

best,

...................john

[Hagar]

Why just because no living creature (on this planet) does this..... should we assume that we can not?

best,

...................john

Thereby hangs the question but whether we can or cannot is immaterial. You're missing the main point of my argument.

[JBaymore]

I don't think so... I'm looking at the support you are giving to that point.

best,

...............john

[Hagar]

It might not be worded correctly as my grammar is not perfect & I'm not an academic. This is my main point & I can't express it more plainly without causing offence or abusing the rules of this forum - which, despite what some might think, I have no wish to do.

I have no objection to anyone doing this privately or perhaps with government, commercial or academic sponsorship. I believe that presenting a national manned space program, costing vast amounts of public money, as a scientific project in the interests of the whole of mankind is a complete fallacy & simply another political ploy to justify it to the people who fund it, the taxpayers. Governments all over the world do this all the time so it's not restricted to one country. I suspect that the space program has always had other & possibly more sinister purposes. It might benefit our knowledge of the universe & bring other technicological benefits but this could be done just as well & at far less cost without sending human beings there at all. That's all I'm saying & I've believed this for over 40 years.

Give me one good reason to doubt that my conclusions are correct & I just might be able to start seeing it from your point of view.

[Katahu]

Refering to Hagar's mention of mythology and history:

You might not remember, but somewhere in the history books, a few well-known individuals did wish to go to space [or at least the moon]. One Chinese figure [according to mythology - this is something you might recall in the show MythBusters] dreamed of going to the moon by using rockets that the Chinese had invented. It was believed that he succeeded by strapping a lot of rockets on a chair and lifted off. He was never seen again - I think.

I've read and heard this mythical story hundreds of times. But I keep forgetting on whether he returned or not. Did he?

[beefhole]

I have no objection to anyone doing this privately or perhaps with government, commercial or academic sponsorship. I believe that presenting a national manned space program, costing vast amounts of public money, as a scientific project in the interests of the whole of mankind is a complete fallacy & simply another political ploy to justify it to the people who fund it, the taxpayers.

Doug, do you honestly think the accomplishments of NASA and the Russian Space Program could've been duplicated in the private sector, even with government help?  I sincerely doubt it.  Either the government funds it completely or bust.

The private sector may be able to get a small craft int he air for a short time-they absolutely cannot do space shuttle missions and build space stations.

I personally see space exploration as an extremely important long-term investment.  The sun may have 8 billion more years, but earth isn't going to sustain humanity forever-possibly not even another thousand years.  Space exploration is a necessary step towards off-world colonization, which will be necessary one day.  By the time politicians and common people realize what we've done to the earth, it'll be too late-we'll need an alternative fast (fast=within a century).

[Woodlouse2002]

Ever thought of trying to change the way the world will be in a hundred years time instead of a billion. Look to the future sure, but seriously. To think mankind will still be around in 8 billion years time is just idiocy. Do you think that for some freak reason we've stopped evolving or something? Do you really think that in a billion years time the world will be just as it is now? Think of how the world was a billion years ago. Life consisted of slimy things living at the bottom of the primal soup and I wouldn't be suprised if another million years took life to a similar existence.

Think for the future sure. But be serious.

[beefhole]

Think for the future sure. But be serious.

I would say the same to you.

It seems highly inprobable to me humanity will change its ways.  It is completely irrelevant just how nonexistent humanity was a billion years ago, or how much we've evolved-all that matters is the possibly within the next millenium (I would remind you we haven't evolved much in the last millenium) we will no longer be able to live on this planet.  Period.

I never said anything about a billion years except to use it as a meaningless statistic about when the sun will go cold.  I didn't use it to demonstrate when we'd have to leave.  I am refering to pollution and the unbelievable consumption rate of our planet's natural resources.

I guess I actually don't really get your post, come to think of it.