YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

[Craig.]

technically yes murdering a royal family member can get you the death penalty here, by hanging i believe. Also serious treason gets you a date with the firing squad.

[Hagar]

Also serious treason gets you a date with the firing squad.

You sure about that Craig? Check out my previous link.

Since the abolishing of capital punishment for murder, the death sentence had remained in force for treason and piracy with violence. The use of capital punishment in these two instances was abolished in 1998 under the Crime and Disorder Act.

[Craig.]

Missed that one:) well its nice to know i can once again safely sell secrets to Mr Putin without fear of my life:

[Papa9571]

Hagar;

Isn't this type of discussion the starting point for change?

It doesn't matter weather it's the US, UK, Canada, or any other democratic society, the voice and will of the people is supposed to be the main factor in governing how laws are made and applied. In the UK that resulted in the abolishment of he death penalty. Here in the US we went the other way. I guess it stems from our version of justice that we brought over from our cousins.

England had its version of Hanging Judges in the late 1600's and early 1700's and that was brought here. Our history includes our version of Hanging Judges such as the Salem Witch trials and our frontier justice system.

Keep in mind the US is the melting pot of the world. Our roots can be traced to almost every other country on this planet and as such we are the "mutts". Those who came here also brought their laws with them and integrated them into our society. Those laws, as well as the 10 commandments, form the basis of our laws today.

As we learned to be more "humane" in our treatment of criminals we may have repealed some of the more barbaric of those laws but their intent still remains. Punishment must fit the crime.

Who determines that punishment? The makers of the laws, in our case senators and represenatives, determine what penalties to place for a given crime. We can whine and complain all we want about penalties for crimes. If you dont like them then you should contact your congressman or minister and make you opinion known. That will be taken into account, along with thousands of other opinions sent to the same person, and will go a long way in helping yours or the opponets point of view prevail.

So when you serve on a jury you are bound by those laws and guidelines, not your personal feelings, in determining what sentance to hand out if you find the defendant guilty

[Hagar]

Well Papa, I can see your point but I don't really see that we can change anything by discussing this. Different countries have their own way of doing things & I'm one of those people who believe in the old saying "When in Rome". Many others seem to disagree with me on that & you should see the fuss when some Brit criminal is sentenced to death or other form of corporal punishment in another country, just because he/she is a Brit. I also recall a similar example of the President intervening in the case of a US citizen sentenced to 12 lashes in accordance with the laws of an Arab country he committed the offence in.

I'm in danger of turning this into a political discussion so will have to be careful. It's fine if you're in charge of your own destiny, with laws debated & voted on by elected representatives in your local council, national parliament or whatever. If you disagree you have the chance to vote against them at the next election. Unfortunately many of the EU laws we have to abide by now (& there's an amazing amount of increasingly stupid laws almost every day) are brought in by faceless, unelected bureaucrats & there's nothing we can do about it. I can see this getting worse, not better.

PS. The other EU countries usually ignore them & carry on as before. Being British we have to play the game & abide by them no matter how stupid they might be.

[Ijineda]

The US are the only civilized western country practicing capital punishment. In this matter, they stand together with countrys like Iran, North Corea and Nigeria, to name a few. Any politician who will try to change this will not be (re)elected, and thats the only reason it still exists. its not making the society safer - what about the states where theres no such penalty? and it also costs A LOT more than keeping a person in jail for lets say 40 years...as most of the criminals are detained 20 to 30 years before their execution.
You might say that capital punishment is an american tradition, as hard to wipe out as was german militarism. I only can hope that people in the US will open their eyes, and we (amnesty international) are working on it...have you ever witnessed an execution? they should be broadcasted live on TV, then the view of the americans over this issue would change.
And I dont wanna know how many innocent were killed that way...

[Papa9571]

or keep a stiff upper lip???

Sorry for inserting the political side into this discussion.

I do agree that  "When in Rome" should apply. The laws of your home country do not apply when visiting foreign lands and most Americans seem to forget that. I, having had the benefit or overseas travel in my growing up years, honor the countries laws that I am visiting and fully expect to have to pay their price if I break them. If that means I get 12 lashes then it's my fault and nobody elses.

This thread is winding down and we seem to have found a lot of common ground as well as have a lot of common complaints in our respective countries. We too have senseless breaucrats that try to make their own ides into laws but fortunately we are able to fight back given the chance. I wonder how the EU will respond to that criticism  from the people. Kinda looks like the future will be really interesting.  

BTW...my roots are in england and on of these days I am going to visit

Dave

[Hagar]

BTW...my roots are in england and on of these days I am going to visit

Dave

It's been a pleasure discussing this with you Dave. Let me know if you ever get round to visiting. Even if we never get to meet I might be able to give you a few tips. For all my criticism it's not a bad place to live. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

[Papa9571]

And my reply to Amnisty International is......


Dont try and force your beliefs on me. That is the common flaw in any group that "claims" to represent human rights.
Remember the kid who, while growing up, refused to eat his peas? Did the kid eat his peas?  Nope cause he was forced.

If you want change in this country you have to listen to the people who live here.

Form a political party here and enter any of the elections. You are more than welcome to do that and will probably get a lot farther than your current tactics. You must follow the will of the people not force you will upon them. That course is, and always has been, doomed to fail.

And now this thread will probably get locked. If it does I am truly sorry.

[ATI_7500]

I didn't see Ijineda trying to force his belief opinion on you. He was just contributing to this topic in a (for me) non-offensive way.

What's your problem then?

[Papa9571]

You might say that capital punishment is an american tradition, as hard to wipe out as was german militarism. I only can hope that people in the US will open their eyes, and we (amnesty international) are working on it..

If that's not trying to force your views on somebody else I dont know what is

This was, until then, and very polite discussion where opinions were stated and debated.

Capital punishment is a form of punishment that has been used by almost all countries at one time or another. Some countires have chosen to abolish that form of punishment while others have not. We in the US do not stand alone when it comes to capital punishment and as such it is not an american tradition. We have chosen our forms of punishment the same way other democratic countries have, through the will and voices of the people.

I did not intend for this to become a political discussion on who is right or wrong. Unfortunatly Ijineda has decided to take that turn by bringing Amensty International into the picture and that is why I said what I did.

And since this thread is closely monitired and already has been locked once this may be one of the last posts before it is locked again and for that I am truly sorry.

[ATI_7500]

Still don't get your point...

[Craig.]

come on guys this has been civil so far, lets not spoil it now.

[z1010]

Hagar,

for me a discussion does not have to end bij agreeing with each other. I discuss to hear other opinions - maybe I like them so much I adopt them, maybe I reject them. I learn from discussions.

Discussions are never meant to hurt or object people - I hope. But ofcourse discussions can be furieus - that's oke, that's the way we are.
And ofcourse I defend my opinion, I fight for it! But is doesn't mean I don't respect other opinions.

[Papa9571]

Then lets agree to disagree and state our personal opinions without continuing to keep this political.

I am sure if you have read the enitre thread you know I have attempted to do just that and you also know where I stand.

I am willing to politely debate the issue.

And Z1010 I welcome your opinions. You might have ideas I havent even begun to consider either.