Silly question

[Craig.]

i wont go into the whole religion thing as i will never believe there is a god, but saying that i also have no problems with others believing in a god.
my problem with alot of it is, people still believe the world was created in 7 days. and if there is a god, why is there so much suffering in the world, people claim he works in mysterious ways but is all powerful and good, hmmm anyone who is as good as god is supposed to be wouldnt allow it to happen.
then again there are some things i cant explain either:)

[stormy]

why is there so much suffering in the world

People make choices and they have to live by them , and yes its sad even the innocent pay for choices that others have made...
people love the good that comes from good choices that they have made.and say only good things to people. And when they make bad choices, blame god for the bad things that happen ..."from the choices they have made"..
just my feelins on it...

[Professor Brensec]

I'm certainly no theologian, nor am I very learned in the ways of other Faiths. I do however have a 'working knowledge' of the major Faiths. It seems to me the 'basic theme' or message is the same, regardless.

We as humans or sentient lifeforms (call it a soul if you prefer) have one gift that the rest of the living creatures on this planet don't have. (Once again call it a soul if you prefer) That is the gift of 'Free Choice'.

Near as I can figure, what would be the point of God (or the Supreme being if you prefer) giving this gift along with the wonderful opportunity to share 'His sort of life' afterwards, if he jumped in and fixed every bad choice made by every person, so as no harm came to anyone or anything?
That would be a perfect, Eutopian, ideal existence. In short it would be Heaven. No sorrow, no suffering, no hardships for anyone.
I suppose we have to prove our 'worthiness', before we 'qualify' for that kind of existence. It's not supposed to be that hard, either.

That, I suppose, is the purpose of our being here.

I accept 'man's' basic inability to be 'good' all the time. And occasionally someone, or a group come along and really stuff things up for the rest of us.
At the same time, these 'events' in History are also an opportuinty for Man to shine. To demonstrate his great capacity for good, compassion and for love.
After all, I suppose those great acts of charity and compassion that we've seen through the ages wouldn't seem much if there was not another, uglier side to mankind to compare them to.

My only big peeve is when men do these things, which are to the rest of us, in every way wrong, but they try to justify what they do in the 'Name of God' or 'Faith', when in reality they are simply acting on their own impulses to be greedy, cruel, inhumane and generally a bunch of arseholes.

[Wing Nut]

My bit for the science vs. religion debate...

Science and Religion are the same thing.  That may sound absurd on the surface, but as I have studied it, it no longer does to me.

    As humans, we have created two major belief systems to answer our questions about life.  These two systems are science and religion.  Both of these systems purport to answer every question we could ever have, but neither of them can.  Science cannot tell me if I have a soul, and religion cannot tell me the distance to Alpha Centauri.  Because of this, no solution to this debate can come about, because neither one does their job.

  Now you may say, that science and religion cannot be the same, but if you look, the tenets of each are almost identical.  Religion requires absolute faith in God; science requires absolute faith in Scientific Method.  Religious facts are disseminated by a chosen few who are supposed to have some great insight into the nature of God that we don

[stormy]

Very interesting Pippin

[Professor Brensec]

Interesting thoughts, Pippin.

I'm always open to a new.........slant on the Religion versus Science debate. And yours would seem to make some sense.

Of course, as I said, my contention is the two could well be (an IMO, are) bonafide. They could serve to prove each others 'theories', as in the 'Noah's Ark' question.
Alternatively, religion, or events recorded and throughout history considered to be the realm of the 'supernatural' (i.e. miracles, strange happenings etc), could well end up being confirmation of the existence of what has been considered to be scientific 'thoery' up till that time it's explained.

I think there's room for a 'strict' Evolutionist to still be able to credit God with the 'installation of a soul' into the first two sentient Homo Sapiens. Also there's room for the Pope to acknowledge that Adam and Eve weren't created out of thin air, but through a process, overseen and brought about by God but in the 'long process' form of 'Evolution'.
Both could agree on this one happening being 'God's plan' and at the same time a firm, proven scientifically substantiated course of events.

Hence, our two 'thoeries' or 'beleifs' are that both Science and Religion are one in the same and can serve to be each others 'proponent'.

[Polynomial]

This thread i way cool now cuz ive just finished reading a book called case for faith by lee strobel and it was very very good.  It answers all those questions about the suffering and God and all that.  

Science vs. Religion - There shouldnt be any versus, Scientists are discovering more and more about the complexity that God has created in this life.  Is it any consequence the that the fastest growing christians are scientists?

As for suffering, it actually serves us to see that the world is not the solution to the problem but rather God is the only solution or we should ask God to present the solution, and as a consequence brings us ever closer to the Loving Creator.

As for evolution it is the biggest load of garbage under the sun.  When I read the bible and it says that God created the world in seven days - thats what i believe.  The chances of Darwinian evolution occuring are the same as a tornado passing through a junkyard and assembling a fully working 747 - and those are odds im not willing to accept.

There is heaps of archeological evidence and scientfic evidence and prophetic evidence that points towards Jesus Christ as being the Saviour of the World and as God as the Intelligent Designer behind this wonderful planet.

Maybe we should all start to come to know God, who knows where the world would end up?

God Bless,

PolyN

[Craig.]

i'm sorry poly but i have seen to much scientific evidence to show that a planet and its inhabitants could never be built in 7 days, it is not at all possible.a planet takes millions of years to form, and this planet and its inhabitants have yet to completely evolve. i have also seen the damage some parts of religion can do to young people,

[Polynomial]

believe me CraigL, it seems at times that the church has done more harm than good . . . . and you have to separate the 'cultural' christians from the 'authentic' christians i.e. those who use the church as the state to gain power etc, and those who genuinely believe Christ came into this world and died for their sins.  All I can say on behalf of the church is that we are sorry for the mistakes that have occured and will occur because after all we are still human and can never live up to the standard God expects us to live by.  Some things that happen in the name of Christ totally contradict the teachings of him and it is every 'authentic' christians aim to live by the principles he set.  Weigh it up, you can see many authentic christians doing heaps of good in the world.  I believe that the world is better off because of christianity.

With regards to creation . . . Genisis may very well be a beautiful poem for evolution but my point of view is that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and by being these things he was able to form the enitre world in the few days.  That is what I believe.

[Craig.]

like i said i have no problem with religion. and there are def some things i cant explain.but again though i am a pure scientist at heart so i am a doubter of everything that has nothing to back it up
i do admit proper christians have helped  they spend their time helping others and have certainly taken alot of problems out of the world which is always a good thing.

[Polynomial]

if i can suggest it at all and if at all possible CraigL, try to get your hands on a book called

"The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel

It is a fantastic book and it might just open your eyes to a few things.  When you read that then read,

"The Case for Faith" by the same authour and I believe that this book answers the tough questions and will beyond any doubt convince you the God is real.  Simple as that.  It will answer questions such as

-Why is there suffering?
-God wouldnt send people to hell.
-God and the killing of innocents?
-I cant doubt and be a christian?
-Miricales contradict science
-Evolution explains away God
-Jesus is the only way to God

It is a very good read.

I do think you are receptive CraigL and believe that if you have an open mind and investigate these things you may see that truth

Take Care (im flying to Cairns 2morrow for 12 days so ill be absent a bit)

PolyN!

[Craig.]

have a great trip.
i cant remember who said it but theres a funny quote  regarding god.

"If triangles had a god it would have three sides"

as for being receptive i really cant. i will however go along with others where i need to, my ex was a christian and held a number of the belifes that go with it, i wont go through them as you know them, but i always did my best to go along with her wishes and actions.

[Professor Brensec]

believe me CraigL, it seems at times that the church has done more harm than good . . . . and you have to separate the 'cultural' christians from the 'authentic' christians

Not quite the way I would put it. It's seems that too many who 'have an axe to grind' would use these exact words to counter arguments for religion of any sort.
Man does the harm that you speak of.

Every institution is run by, organised by and made up of Humans so it's only natural that all of them, regardless of their origins would have their share of morons. The Church or churches aren't immune to this, for the reasons of 'Gods non-interference policy' that I put forward earlier.

Anyway, as for the 'creating the Earth in 7 days' bit goes. Time, or the measuring of it, is a manmade concept to express the passage of age.
I am as 'sprituaul' as the next man nad have studied at much length, these questions, and my understanding is that the simplest solution would ordinarily be the truest.
I believe that much of the Old testament is 'symbolic' in nature. the deatails are not important because the truth iof the matter isn't contained in the specifics but in the overall theme. I believe that the Earth took Millions or Billions of years to form and that all the processes that needed to take place for everything to exist as it does (from a scientific point of view) did occur.
The fact that it is 'documented' by the original writers (whom no one knows) of the 'Old Testament' or Jewish/Hebrew 'Tora' of which it is a part, as taking 7 days is simply a 'representation' of the fact that it was the work of God and secondly that He did it all of it, and this is (for sake of argument) the order in which it all occurred.
A day, a month, a millenium, an eon. I doesn't matter. It was just a pretty nifty trick!

An behold! It is very good!

[stormy]

Very well put .. Clap Clap...............

[OTTOL]

JESUS-H-CHRIST! What the heck is going on here! OK lets see here............
>Started with standing on the South Pole and time...
>went to quantum physics
>Zulu time....
That's GMT(Greenwich Mean Time)Brensec....you know......the time in Greenwhich Engulund........I guess they figured the English did'nt have enough to do!!
>Solar Sails?
>light particles
>photons
>photons vs light particles
>something about someone's LOVER and pondering the question of the universe?

Don't you just lover pondering the questions of the universe!

>maps of the stars
>a brief Star Trek dialog
>God
>Atlantis
>God Again
>Something about tornadoes and 747's ?

The chances of Darwinian evolution occuring are the same as a tornado passing through a junkyard and assembling a fully working 747

>and a big "hand clap" from Stormy
  So if it all started with TWO people, would'nt that make the foundation for mankind, as we know it, a bunch of INBREEDERS?

Did anybody see that Antarctica footage where they go to the cabins where the original explorers "hung out".....ah, hung out, and everything is perfectly preserved? Do you think that stuff in the cans is still edible?