The Pledge of Allegiance

[4_Series_Scania]

I'd gladly take a Pledge of Allegiance, but, to my family, or somebody dear to me.

I could'nt pledge allegiance to my country when I don't agree with alot thats done in its name, or, has been done in its name.

[Hagar]

I'd gladly take a Pledge of Allegiance, but, to my family, or somebody dear to me.

You bring up a very good point. Like Keni, I've seen a lot of changes during my lifetime & I'm not convinced that some are for the better. Patriotism is no longer encouraged in the UK & I'm not certain that people now would be so willing to lay down their lives for their country but most people would still do that to defend their family & loved ones.

If Kevin is correct & the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1893 it's possibly not as traditional as most people might think. No offence but it seems very similar to the Boy Scout Oath as written by Baden-Powell in 1908. This has been changed many times over the years. http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/law.htm
[quote]On my honour I promise that:-

1. I will do my duty to God and the King.

2. I will do my best to help others whatever it may cost me.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Hehehe, I've never really understood thr American patriot mentality and I can't say I've ever really agreed with it either after seeing what I've seen happen in the world in the last 15 years of my life and the last 100 years of this century. However I do feel it may be an important quality in some respects.

Secondly, a woman made a very good point about the removal of God in American society- she said that when you take God out of the schools, out of society out of mainstream culture you cannot ever say "why didn't God stop that from happening?" (in reference to September 11- I agree with the aforementioned statement).

Thirdly, Triple 7, I can totally see where you are coming from with that article.

Lastly, isn't it a little ironic that American currency has "in God we trust" on it, when the Bible says you cannot serve two masters?


A.

[Katahu]

I can imagine a future like this:

1. Currency
-- From: In God we trust.
-- To: In Gates we trust.

2. Oaths and pledges
-- From: So help me God.
-- To: So help me, my overly-paid lawyer.

-- From: One nation under God.
-- To: One nation under Canada and above Mexico.
-- Or: One nation underdog.
-- which leads to the following --

3. Songs
-- From: God bless America.
-- To: Someone bless America.

To me, it's like trying to imagine a nightmare after waking up from one.

[ozzy72]

To me, it's like trying to imagine a nightmare after waking up from one

When did you go into teaching?

[Hagar]

Hehehe, I've never really understood the American patriot mentality

That's probably because you've never experienced it yourself. I started school soon after the end of WWII when Britain still had an Empire. We were taught to be proud of it & our own country at the head of it. We had just won a desperate struggle against all odds which could have not been accomplished without patriotism & everyone pulling together against a common enemy. Your own country was then part of the British Empire & many people living there still felt a deep loyalty to the Mother country. Many had felt this so deeply that they volunteered to help defend it in its hour of need & were prepared to sacrifice their lives to protect it which a large number of them did. Britain no longer has an empire & the idea of patriotism started dying in the 1960s. Despite this I can't help noticing your own loyalty to the idea of Great Britain & her Empire.

PS. The country we were fighting so desperately was itself united by a deep feeling of patriotism. Great things can be achieved if you can get the people of a country to believe passionately in what they're doing.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Indeed Doug, however I think what you have missed in my differentiation between British patriotism and American patriotism is the culture.

British patriotism, I feel, has more grace and poise than say, those across the Pond. There everything is a bit more oestentatious and more offensive (IMHO). British patriotism is, at least this is the way I see it, is less flag waving and obvious displays of patriotism and more ingrained stuff- proper table settings- you know what I'm on about, although the flag waving bit is good- I do own a large Union Jack.


A.

[H]

Hehehe, I've never really understood the American patriot mentality and I can't say I've ever really agreed with it either after seeing what I've seen happen in the world in the last 15 years of my life and the last 100 years of this century. However I do feel it may be an important quality in some respects.

That's probably because you've never experienced it yourself... ...Britain no longer has an empire & the idea of patriotism started dying in the 1960s. Despite this I can't help noticing your own loyalty to the idea of Great Britain & her Empire.
PS. The country we were fighting so desperately was itself united by a deep feeling of patriotism. Great things can be achieved if you can get the people of a country to believe passionately in what they're doing.

The portion of Hagar's quote that I have cut out, Andrew, is quite pertinant, too. The military starts with basic training and tech school, then OJT (On the Job Training). I believe I've mentioned, at least to Hagar, that I see 3 basic levels (each with sublevels): knowledge, understanding and realisation. Training/schooling gets you through the first and into the second; the hands-on, being there experience traverses the second and, hopefully, extends your awareness into the third.
I may not be quite so close in time as Hagar but there have been many WW2 and, in my early life, WW1 veterans around; some of the ones I know from WW2 are still coherent (even a couple - coherent - relatives are still around). A country's patriotism runs the cycle and wanes in times of a *relative* peace on the homefront; history proves that (look at the Roman Empire -- or any other). Not only is it applicable to the U.K. but also to the U.S. and, when threatened, their patriotism will again surge (2001).
The U.S. has been drawn into two world wars that it had, as a nation, initially tried to stay out of. Our economy has never been self-dependent and the nation's constituents are diverse, their relatives are from everywhere around the world and we do care about them; complete isolationism isn't feasible. Do we try to help them reconcile -- or commit mutual suicide? And all sides of the issue are within our own conglomerate ranks.
I'll take too much space here if I go on. I hope it's enough for you to understand a little better.

[ozzy72]

Andrew I think you are mistaking mannerisms for manners.

[Hagar]

Andrew I think you are mistaking mannerisms for manners.

Indeed. Patriotism in Britain (for Britain read England) can be just as objectionable or more so than anywhere else. We used to be pretty good at flag waving & are still hated for it in many parts of the world. It has its good points but it's based on the old class distinction system where everyone was expected to know their place & do their duty. It was always the poorer people that suffered although they were probably the most loyal subjects. This is the main reason it died out & is no longer encouraged by the government. I've noticed that more people in the former British Empire regret its passing than anyone who actually lives here.

PS. Patriotism was revived for a short period during the Falklands War in 1982. This was as much for political reasons as anything else. Actually that was always the reason for it.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

True, I'll pay that Mark and Doug, however, growing up in what the world is like today I've grown to have a strong dislike of US imperialism and I suppose the GBE is my "protection" from it!



A.

[Hagar]

I suppose the GBE is my "protection" from it!

I don't want to disillusion you Andrew but I wouldn't bank on it. Look at how we deserted you & the other members of the Commonwealth when we joined the Common Market. I've always deeply regretted that & still think it was a mistake but there was nothing I could do about it. In blunt terms we were sold down the river.

[jordonj]

I've never really understood the American patriot mentality

Well, the thing to keep in mind is that there's different kinds of patriots.  For example, there's the "My Country...Right OR Wrong" patriot, then there's the Ron Kovics Patriot...

For those of you who don't know, Ron Kovics was a boy who dreamed of joining the Marines and fighting for his country...and what happened really illustrates the saying "Watch what you wish for."

He accidentally killed a fellow solider in a case of friendly fire, but when he went to his CO to report it, his CO simply replied "I don't think so."

Later, a bullet would paralyze him from the waist down.  He came back to a country that hated him and was very unkind to Vietnam Veterans (a source of shame in our history).  He later became an activist against the war (and would be thrown down on the pavement and have his medals ripped from his chest).

At any rate, at a protest at an convention (I forget which party) he is said to have said "People say that if you don't love America, then get the hell out.  Well I love America.  I LOVE America!"

Another quote (not sure if this is verbatim):

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president... is morally treasonable to the American public.

Some Peacenik?  Nope, Theodore Roosevelt!  He also said:

A man who is good enough to shed his blood for the country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards.

But back to patriotism...Those of us who criticize our country do not do so because we hate our country or the soliders, but we do so because we love our country and the soliders.

[raz]

I'm just going to broaden the discussion a little.  As most of you know, the American Forefathers intended the nation to be one of individual freedom.  Sorry to our british friends here, but they wanted the new government to take a more "invisible hand" approach instead of their former King.  I guess it irritates me that these "ignorant vocals"  seem to think that their individual choices need to affect everybody.

Could go deeper, but I'll probably say something I shouldn't

My two cents...

[H]

True, I'll pay that Mark and Doug, however, growing up in what the world is like today I've grown to have a strong dislike of US imperialism and I suppose the GBE is my "protection" from it!.

You have been growing up in the world as it is today partly because the U.S. was involved in a slight skirmish in the Pacific during the 1940s. If it hadn't been, you would VERY likely be having a much closer look at REAL imperialism .