The Pledge of Allegiance

[Felix/FFDS]

If the constitution dictates that religion and the state be kept apart, and for that reason the theory of "intelligent design" is to be kept out of schools due to it's religious attachments then surely having the words "under God" in a pledge to be recited in schools is "unconstitutional" what ever that may mean.

Correct?
Or am I missing something?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .....

There is no strict "Separation of Church and State" ... only that Congress shall not make a law enforcing a specific religion/church.

[Katahu]

I really don't care what people think about the references anymore. All this endless chit chat of such cases has completely discouraged me from continuing such a discussion.

We all know perfectly well that [in the near and distant future] there will always be some half-witted monkey trying to stir things up over the most simplest things in live [just for their own personal gain].

In that case, this discussion should be over. If I ever hear such a case in the news, or in the newspapers, or in some radio, I'll just simple ignore them and fly my simulator [or maybe listen to System of a Down - Chop Suey].

Einstein was right. Human stupidity is infinite.

[BFMF]

I'm surprised the mods have allowed this topic to continue without threatning to use various marmalade weapons against anyone

Wouldn't this be considered political and religious discussion?

[Triple_7]

Its a very interesting and complicated mess in this case...

Every morning at my school over the PA they say the pledge and have a short moment of silence.  Being a vocational student the 40+ of us are usualy already out the door and on the bus before it starts.  There is an occasional morning the bus is running late and we have to wait.  A few of us who just simply walk out the door right as the anouncement starts "Please stand..." and continue our conversations outside.  We dont make a big deal out of it and just ignore any comments or looks we get.  (I have my reasons for not wanting to say or really even hear it...not going to explain...)  If I'm somewhere in the building as it is said i just remain quiet and continue with my buisness.  

Awhile back there was a plane crash in the lower part of the county.  All 4 people onboard were killed (mom, dad, son, and sons girlfriend) ...I knew 3 of them and the mom pretty well.  A couple days later after the news really spred it was picture day and vocational people had to go first thing before getting on the bus.  The pledge was said but before the moment of silence the anouncer brung up the crash and asked for a moment of silence to morn the loss of this family (mind you virtually no one in our school knew these people...i only knew them through my old church and old school)  Most people didnt think anything of it but i was standing there red faced and holding back tears surrounded by peers and teachers who didnt know i had any connection.  I was even laughed at by a couple people.  That kind of ruined my opinion on this whole pledge and silent moment deal.  Totally trashed my day as well.  Personaly i feel that if they are going to have a moment of silence it should be just that...dont need to bring up tragedies....whether they know it or not theres always someone with a connection and really does ruin that persons day.

I guess its one of those things that no matter what they come up with its always going to piss someone off.  Personaly they can do away with it or keep it...not going to bother me either way.  

As it is sometimes said the US is a giant "melting pot" of different races and nationalities.  (anyone notice that we are beggining to find more and more food and other goods with both English and Spanish labels?  Similar to the Canadian English and French.)  Theres going to be a lot of new religions and new points of view on things.  Its becoming harder and harder to do things without stepping on someones toes.  Some people just cant except this fact.  Some want to keep traditions others just want it their way.  Neither side can agree on what to do.  Seems everything is about being "politicaly correct"  

There was an artical in the local paper the other day  I clipped.  It has to do with the whole "CHRISTmas" deal.  The author as with most was very opinionated and i was a little surprised they even printed it.  She basicaly made one statement that at first had me enraged but then it began to make a little sence.

Don't turn this into a fight.  3 pages of calm discusion lets keep it that way.  But i personaly feel it makes a point...this was quite a blunt statement.

"These immigrants come to the US, they take our jobs, complain about anything remotely religious and try to change it...such as wanting it to become "happy holidays" insted of the traditional "merry CHRISTmas" they bring in their religion and expect everyone to adapt with it but complain over such things as the Pledge of Allegiance having the words "under god"  Well....They DIDNT have to come here, they DONT need to be here, the so called "atheists"  should move to China where relious freedom is unheard of...(she carries on for a few more sentences here...cutting them out for space) .......These immigrants have a problem with the "Christ" in Christmas, "under god" in the pledge, and yet they have NO problem taking our money with the words "in god we trust" on the back."

That was the last line of her artical.  Other then the fact she blames it all on immigrants (from what ive seen it hasnt been the immigrants) she does bring up a good point at the end.

Why do people complain about the pledge but have not even mentioned the "in god we trust" on the currency  Then again, give it time...that could be next :-/

Sorry for the book ...I'm bored and this is an interesting subject to me

[Triple_7]

I'm surprised the mods have allowed this topic to continue without threatning to use various marmalade weapons against anyone

Wouldn't this be considered political and religious discussion?

A mix of both really but its keeping quite civil

[H]

The rest of us aren't good enough to be Texans ...  if we were, we'd have moved there!
Bumper Snicker:  "American by birth, Texan by the Grace of God!"

And New Hampshire has done its part to show it has no objections to their doing so...
Bumper Sticker:
"Welcome to New Hampshire...
now go home."

If the constitution dictates that religion and the state be kept apart, and for that reason the theory of "intelligent design" is to be kept out of schools due to it's religious attachments then surely having the words "under God" in a pledge to be recited in schools is "unconstitutional" what ever that may mean.
Correct?
If that is the case then what is the argument?

The individual's concept in respect to the precedent that made way for it, The Declaration of Independence. Its beginning words are more often recited (and, I think, confused as part of The Constitution -- we celebrate Independence Day, not Constitution Day):

"IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...."

...(just as there are some people that believe in their heart that the only True Bible and original writings is the King James Version , in English).

Ah, yes, the famous, "It [KJV, circa 17th century A.D.] was good enough for the apostle Paul [circa 1st century A.D.), it's good enough for me!" But, hey, I've still read from it.  8)

[beefhole]

"These immigrants come to the US, they take our jobs, complain about anything remotely religious and try to change it...such as wanting it to become "happy holidays" insted of the traditional "merry CHRISTmas" they bring in their religion and expect everyone to adapt with it but complain over such things as the Pledge of Allegiance having the words "under god"  Well....They DIDNT have to come here, they DONT need to be here, the so called "atheists"  should move to China where relious freedom is unheard of...(she carries on for a few more sentences here...cutting them out for space) .......These immigrants have a problem with the "Christ" in Christmas, "under god" in the pledge, and yet they have NO problem taking our money with the words "in god we trust" on the back."

I don't understand the references to immigrants, triple 7-either she defined it elsewhere in the article or she is an idiot.

I'd like to make one thing very clear-the only people who stir up trouble in this respect are evangelical athiests.  The rest of them don't have any problem with saying 'under God,' since it doesn't have any meaning to them.

I don't need to pledge my alliegence every afternoon in homeroom to be patriotic and love my country, and be willing to die for it in an instant.  It's that simple.  To me, it is meaningless.  Saying the pledge doesnt earn me "+2 Patriotic."  Therefore, I don't raise hell about reciting it, there's no point in starting trouble.

In response to Dave's post on page two, (OUTRAGE) I love how every time a decision goes against these activist groups it's "those goddamn liberal/conservative/communist judges trying to oppress their personal agendas upon us!  Let us request their resignation so we can get judges who will always rule in our favor up there!"

[ozzy72]

This thread has gone neither political or religious, it merely questions aspects of a system (rather than parties or individuals), and the use of the word God within that system. Also the debate has remained civilised. So I'll go put the marmalade on my toast now

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Originally I didnt intend for the God aspect of the pledge to go full bore into this discussion, but its still cool.



A.

[Hagar]

Originally I didnt intend for the God aspect of the pledge to go full bore into this discussion, but its still cool.

This shows how easy it can be to stir up a hornet's nest by asking a genuine question & not being fully aware of the facts. Fortunately that hasn't happened here as so far it's being discussed sensibly & politely. I was aware of some controversy over religion being brought into the Pledge of Allegiance when this goes against the Constitution which is taken very seriously in the USA.* The reason for this has been explained by JordonJ & I didn't realise this was still a current issue. As Woody points out this is perfectly clear & there should be no cause for argument. To a casual observer this seems plainly unconstitutional if the Constitution is regarded as being set in stone.

"These immigrants come to the US, they take our jobs, complain about anything remotely religious and try to change it...."

I know this is a quote but it's a common enough argument. This seems a strange way of looking at things in a country like my own that is mainly made up of immigrants. We were all immigrants once & the ones they're complaining about are simply the latest batch. As Beefy says, very few of them have any argument with the country they have chosen to live in & have no wish to change anything. As usual it's a small minority that are the cause of the problem & the others are usually quite unfairly assumed to be just like them. Very often objections are made on behalf of sections of the community without their consent by people concerned with promoting their own agendas.

*PS. Britain has never had a constitution which sometimes makes this difficult to understand. It also explains the objections to a European Constitution. If this is ever agreed it will have to be uncomplicated & very carefully worded.

[Felix/FFDS]

I'm surprised the mods have allowed this topic to continue without threatning to use various marmalade weapons against anyone

Wouldn't this be considered political and religious discussion?

*SO FAR* it has remained reasonably neutral.  Now, if you want to pledge allegiance to Me, and Worship Me, then the thread might be considered Theopolitical ...

[Woodlouse2002]

All hail Felix.

[Triple_7]

Like i said...She blames it on the immigrants...from what ive seen so far it hasnt been the immigrants but people just like her only on the other side of view

Shes a regular in this paper.  I dont think theres been one artical yet that made a lot of sence.  Quite surprised the paper even prints them.  Always highly biased and always blaming everything on someone else :-/

[Wing Nut]

I won't speak to the rest of this, because right now I can't follow up on it.  I can tell you this much, however.  The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the opening ceremony of the 1893 World's Fair; also known as the Columbian Exposition.  It was written by Francis Bellamy, a baptist minister from upstate New York.  The wording was slightly different.  

[i]I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Republic for which it stands

[bbstackerf]

It's all about change.....

Like beef said, It's an American thing. Actually it WAS an American thing. We survived as a country before "under God" was put in and we'll survive long after it's taken out. Change is scary to people. I'm 46, when I was in elementary school the Pledge of Allegiance was just something me and probably 99% of the rest of the kids in America did. You stood up in respect of the flag because it was our symbol. One of those things that was taught to us and held us together and as a nation. It's called patriotism. Will patriotism die because our kids don't say the words "under God"? Doubtfull.

Now it's been changed and our memory and hearts are offended that someone has changed what we thought was "the way it should be".  Don't get me wrong I have strong feelings about it. I grew up with "Mom, apple pie and John Wayne" being the things you hold dear and aspire to as a good American. But I'm intelligent enough to know that this too shall pass. We'll still be America. We'll still have good and bad, crime, greed, politicians and hey, you can still pick up a pretty good apple pie at the market.

I think perhaps I got myself lost here somewhere, maybe because trying to type while your head is swiming in memories of what was is hard to do. I was born on the 4th of July. Whattaya expect?

Bottom line, Gentlemen. In the end, like the man said, nothing in life is sure, 'cept death and taxes. How you choose to believe, or how you treat people doesn't come from a phrase. It comes from the heart dictated by your character.

Sides. I'll always have my John Waye DVD collection.

Keni