should this be banned

[BFMF]

Where i live, you have to be atleast 18 to purchase any kind of airgun, including the ammo

[Smoke2much]

Thanks for the clarification Woodlouse.  If you had said about clubs or access to land I wouldn't have taken offence.  I cannot shoot these days as I have nowhere to go and live in a city.  When I have somewhere I will take the hobby up again.  It all comes down to doing things responsibly.  I personally don't think that anyone serious about shooting would buy an air rifle from a british market stall.  It all comes down to quality.

I also never miss more than once.

Will

[Iroquois]

In Canada, I'm not sure what the legal age it is to buy a gun but I believe it's 16.

At the risk of sounding too political, I'd just like to say that all guns should not be in the possession of civilians. We simply no longer need them. We do not need to defend our homes with them and we no longer need to hunt for food with them. Guns are weapons, and are designed to kill, they should only be in the hands of highly trained military personelle.

To counter Oso, I'm not a liberal and still I believe that civilians are not responsible enough to carry fire arms. Over half the murders and attempted murders in Toronto are gun related, and this is in a nation with strict gun laws.

Pete, sure cars kill but they are not designed to kill, guns are. You make some good arguments about hunting but very few people hunt anymore. Of course things get complicated at this point as people argue about defense of family and civil liberties. After all everyone has the rights to life and liberty, but what about security of the person. I think that allowing untrained, irresponsible, and unsupervised civilians carry such dangerous weapons, designed to harm, violates all the basic rights I listed. Sure you may never shoot someone, but what about your neighbour, or the guy down the street? These weapons should be banned to avoid the carnage we have seen time and time again.

Kids and youths especially should not have access to guns. My simple argument for this, look at Columbine and Taber Alberta. Also take a look at the age of the people who are carring guns in the ghettos of Chicago, LA, New York, Detroit, and Toronto.

[BFMF]

Do you really think that banning guns will stop people from murdering others

If a person wants to kill someone bad enough, they will use anything they can. All kind of things like knives, cross bows , sticks, rocks, and the list could go one forever. hell, you can kill someone with your hands and feet.

What we need are stiffer penalties

[ozzy72]

By Astrid Zweynert LONDON (Reuters) - Rap stars are to perform in London today in support of a campaign to combat gun crime in the capital, just days after two men died in a spate of gangland shootings. Artists from controversial rap band So Solid Crew, Mica Paris, Omar and Heartless Crew will play at venues throughout London on Thursday in support of the Disarm Trust. The Trust funds projects to discourage young people from getting involved in gun crime. Supporters include Megaman, from So Solid Crew, and boxing promoter Frank Warren, who was seriously injured in a London shooting in 1989. "I want to get into the minds of the kids and make the government understand why kids get involved," said Megaman, whose fellow So Solid member Ashley Walters -- known as Asher D -- was jailed for 18 months last March for firearms offences. The government, which has given 70,000 pounds towards the cost of Thursday's concerts, introduced a month-long amnesty this month, urging the handover of illegal firearms as well as unwanted air weapons, blank firers and imitation guns. While the situation is still a far cry from the U.S, this country, and in particular London, is facing a serious problem, with guns now considered a fashion item by many young people. Firearm offences in 1997 totalled 12,410 but by 2001 they had risen 42 percent to 17,589. Two men were shot dead in London and another was seriously injured in gangland shootings over the Easter weekend. A 27-year-old man died after a gunfight between rival groups at a crowed nightclub in central London and a 30-year-old man was killed when two men on a motorbike shot him in the head and chest in Harlesden, north London. Calls for tougher gun laws were sparked earlier this year after the deaths of two teenage girls who became caught up in a hail of bullets at a New Year party in Birmingham.

Well this article speaks for itself.

[Oso]

Hmmmm.... seems like banning them does no good.

However, here in San Antonio the neighborhood that has the highest per capita gun ownership has the lowest gun crime rate in the area. A correlation maybe?

[Hagar]

I've kept out of the discussion until now. I've seen all the arguments for & against many times before. We could discuss this until this time next year & whatever I say won't change anyone's mind on the rights or wrongs of gun ownership.  ::)

However, to get back to the original topic, prosecuting those market traders selling this stuff to anyone with

[BFMF]

heard on the radio that there was a school shooting today.....

Some kid pulled a gun and shot the principle, then shot and killed himself.




(don't turn this into an argument, i'm just stating a fact)

[Craig.]

yeah i heard about that to, a sad story indeed.
its rather creepy though how this subject comes up and suddenly these incidents come up like ozzys mom which luckaly she was ok. and then this school incident

[Professor Brensec]

Here (Australia) the gunlaws are "relatively" the same in each State, after an incident in the late '90's which stirred enough public outrage and opinion for politicians to get uniform laws happening, countrywide. Prior to that the laws were always quite strict, especially with regard to the two legally "troublesome" types, handguns and semi/full auotmatic rifles.

I have licensing for handgun/s, the most difficult to obtain and retain here. In order to obtain and retain this licensing I had to undergo extremely rigorous training, testing and administrative procedures. The storage regulations have to be seen to be believed. The Police can also arrive on my doorstep at any time and demand to see the weapon and the safe.
The only other way in which on can obtain a handgun license is for the purpose of target shooting as a member of a Pistol Club. This is less rigorous but still comprehensive and does not allow the licensee to carry the weapon.
I have to undergo yearly testing and have to demonstrate my ability to handle the weapon, accurate shooting (less than 95% - you fail and lose the weapon), safety knowledge and must also hold a Senior First Aid certificate which is re-tested every 3 years.
Obviously, only people who are serious about there gun ownership and are capable and responsible can hope to earn this priviledge here.
That's the difference, there is no Constitutional right to bear arms. Just a priviledge for those who have a genuine need and are prepared and able to maintain the standards.
Rifle licensing is covered by the same legislation. Obviously less strict and rigorous but still good reason is required. Unfortunately there is no need for any kind of training or safety testing etc. Any kind of airgun or BB gun is classified as a firearm here and the same licensing is required. The minimum age for any firearms license is 18. The only exception is for Minors who take part in target shooting with air pistols and rifles as members of junuior divisions of a Pistol Club. Minors cannot be licensed for anything other than Air or BB guns.
No-one can sell or repair a firearm unless they are a licensed firearms dealer and qualified armourer.

No crimes are comitted involving licensed firearms in this country. They are committed with illegal firearms.
Many times I have asked "anti-gun lobby" people how taking guns away from the law abiding people, whose guns are never (or virtually never) used for illegal purposes, will have any effect on the incidence of gun related crime. I get no sensible reply. It would be like taking driving licenses off those who DON"T drive and expecting there to be less cars on the road!

Things seem to be pretty well sewn up here, except for illegal gun trade, which is a totally different matter to that being discussed here.

[Smoke2much]

I understand that in Switzerland the vast majority of the citizens are members of a militia similar in structure to the British TA.  One of the requirements is that the personal weapons are kept at home, ready for instant use in the event of an invasion.  Switzerland has one of the lowest incidences of gun crime in Europe.

The whole Gun Debate in my opinion is pointless.  Those that see gun ownership as a right and a responsibility will never agree with the anti gun lobby.  The anti gun lobby cannot(will not?) see that gun ownership can be safe in the hands of responsible law abiding people.

The problem lies within the criminal element that exists in all societies and has allways existed in all societies.  Crime is not a problem unique to this century.  Wherever you have poor conditions and lack of intelligence you will find criminals who cannot see the point in working to better themselves.  It is easier to buy a cheap gun to threaten a bank clerk than it is to complete a degree and earn the money.

You cannot ban everything because a limited few will abuse it, this would create the ultimate nanny state.  Likewise you cannot allow everything that people want no matter what risk it poses to others, this would simply encourage anarchy.

My belief is that Brensec's government has it right.  Properly policed and regulated gun use has a place within society.  Random gun ownership amongst criminals does not.  Allow those that can demonstrate sense more freedom than those who only demonstrate stupidity.

Will

[Woodlouse2002]

I must say that although I do believe that not just anyone should be able to buy a gun. I also think that the best way to cure gun crime is to give all over 18's a firearm. That way anyone wanting to shoot someone can only expect to be fired at back.

Switzerland seems to have the right idea. Although a similar thing seems to be happen naturally in America is obviously needs a more peaceful nation to work.

[Professor Brensec]

The only problem with giving everyone a gun, Woody, is that there are many, far too many, people in our society (male and female) who have not learnt (and may never) to control their tempers. In our societies their need to get physically violent, given the right circumstance and the right amount of antagonism, isn't looked upon as a "mental disorder" rather just a propensity towards anger.
Given this, there would be for too much risk of these people reaching for their gun during an argument over a parking spot or a girlfriend or a seat on the bus.

Something like the 'Old West" is depicted as being.

[Smoke2much]

Too right Brensec.  The Swiss give assault rifles to members of their armed forces, to be used in the event of a national emergency.  Giving everyone the right to carry a gun without first educating them in the responsibility that this entails would lead, in my opinion, to anarchy.

Will

[Woodlouse2002]

Well its only a theory and I would never like to see it carried out. Cause if it was then gun crime would escalate to a huge level in the first year or so before all those dunderheads learnt that there only going to get shot at if they start shooting.