The right to die

[Scottler]

Hagar, that becomes a more complex issue.  The child should definitely not go without care, I'm not THAT bad.  lol

But who needs to pay for it?  Why is it MY responsibility to pay for THEIR child?  If one or both of the parents is not completely able to work, then sure, send some of my money.  If the parents are working full time, send some of my money.

But if the parents are sitting home all day watching Oprah, then they don't deserve a cent of my money.  Furthermore, someone who would sacrifice the health of their child so they don't have to work doesn't even deserve a child to begin with, so the child should be put into a healthy, loving environment where he/she will get the adequate and necessary care.

[Smoke2much]

Unfortunately the original concept has changed over the years & wealthy people will always want preferential treatment.

They don't get it though.  They try but it just makes us more stubborn

The point of the NHS is that it's free at the point of delivery to all.  Everyone in the UK makes contributions except for those under 16 and those over 65.  People in receipt of benefits make payments at the same percentage (I believe) as those in employment.  This is thus similar to income tax in that those who earn more pay more.

There is often a great deal of press about people receiving treatment on the NHS free when they have no right to it.  This is false.  People who are found to be not covered by National insurance are presented with a bill which they are required to pay.  Treatment has been refused to foreign nationals who have refused to pay.  I am personally aware of a case where a patient was allowed to die because he had refused to pay a previous bill and returned to the country following deportation.

The system works because the level of care is the same for all and the level of payment is the same for all.  The amount paid is also substantially less than a similar private scheme would be because of the sheer number of "subscribers".  Given the choice between this system and a private insurance culture I would prefer ours on the grounds that my patients are patients and not customers and my decisions are therefore only based on medical considerations and are never financially biased.  I am, however, a very small cog and the financial decisions are made but by people on much fatter salaries than mine.

Will

[Hagar]

Scott. You can quote as many examples as you wish & I can respond with equally valid counter arguments. Through my taxes I pay for someone else's children to be educated although my own child is now an adult & I paid for most of her higher education myself. I might complain about how much tax I have to pay & how unfair life is but I can't very well object or opt out. It's the way the system works & allows every child to have a decent education.

We could go on discussing this until this time next year & I suspect we would never agree. I've said that the system is open to abuse & quite agree that it IS often abused. Unless you're prepared to accept that a social system of any sort cannot possibly work. As I said before, it's not the fault of the system & measures should be put in place to make sure it's not abused. Unfortunately they don't seem to have figured out the answer to that yet but I still prefer our system to any alternatives I've seen.

[Scottler]

Fair enough...Like I've said before, we don't HAVE to agree...I love debating this kinda thing, and as long as it's done civilly, no harm done.  It's been fun.  No hard feelings all around!

[Hagar]

[quote]Fair enough...Like I've said before, we don't HAVE to agree...I love debating this kinda thing, and as long as it's done civilly, no harm done.

[jordonj]

Scottler, I do agree that there are people who can work but choose not to.  But many of us do want to work and cannot find it.  I did try applying at McDonalds...as a rule, McDonalds (or other fast food establishments) shy away from hiring overqualified people.  As I said, I have only been able to find work as a substitute teacher (in spite of my continued job search), and even that is so crowded, that the school district has closed the list (new teachers can't get on...a lot of people with B/As out there who can't find work).  In addition, a lot of people who went to school to get their teaching certification are finding there are no jobs because schools are trimming their teaching staff:  retiring teachers are not replaced and some teachers are just being laid off.  Much of the computer jobs that I hoped to get 5 or so years ago (when I went back to school) are now overseas.  Several plants are now closed here.  Tell the employes at Michigan Works!, the agency that helps people find work, that the economy is improving, and they'll look at you like you claimed there's gold in Grand Traverse Bay.

Several businesses are either not offering insurance, or keeping people just a few hours short of full-time so they don't have to pay insurance.  Insurance costs are passed onto the employee...sometimes upwards of $175/month...a big chunk if the employee only makes $800 a year.  In order to make enough to live on, you need to make at least $10/hour...maybe even $15/hour...that's more than two full-time, minimum wage jobs...and God help you if you happen to be a single parent!

All I can say is, I hope you never find yourself in a similar position that I am in...

[Scottler]

All I can say is, I hope you never find yourself in a similar position that I am in...

Jordon, that's just it...and this isn't a slam on you, I swear.  But I WON'T find myself in that situation, because I took it upon myself, relying on no one else, to ensure that I've got things in place to protect me if such a tragedy should occur.  

You have my respect for trying to bust your a$$ to provide for you and your family, you really do.  And in my theory, you'd be one of the first people to get assistance, because you're trying like hell.  My concern is more for those who just don't give a crap, and do nothing to take the steps to protect themselves.

[jordonj]

Thank you...just to give you more food for thought, you'd be surprised at how quickly apathy can creep in...it saps the will to look for work, make things better, and your motivation.

You have to fight it constantly...and a lot of people who have worked at Leer (a plant that closed...putting over 400 people out of work), are not as able to fight it like I am.  It's easy to say "this can't happen to me" while you're well-off...then you find out that it can.

[Scottler]

lol trust me, I know that all too well.  It hasn't all been roses for me either!  Then again, who among us has had it made since day one, right?

[Politically Incorrect]

Ironic Jordan is in MI and can't get a job at a McDonalds

It was in 1992 that after I couldn't get hired at McDonalds I moved from MI to TN, LOL!!

I hope no one misunderstood my post. I agree with paying for the help that some with medical conditions or disablilities that prevent them from working, i have no problem with that. It is just that in TN there are many who are more than able to work but won't based on the fact why if they can sit at home and wait on a check in the mail.
Agreed this is going off topic so that is all I will say.

But my last place of employment offered health insurance (term used loosly) Now where I live there are literally 200+ doctors of all sorts, out of them 1 (not exagerated) accepted the insurance my employer offered, In Knoxville TN (known for some of the best hospitals) 5 accepted it out of literally 1000+ doctors. Makes you wonder what type of deal these doctors make with insurance companies? Problem is they can get away with such costs, just like funeral homes do, it is a needed service and business is good 24/7 ,365 days a year.

I understand if i'm taken to a hospital that by law they must provide me the needed services whether or not I approve of them due to my condition. And as you state Scottler the hospital then will worry about payment later.

Now becasue of what happened to me I was unable to work for 6 months, I was unable to get any Government assistance, becasue of the fact I had no insurance at the time i'm now indebited to pay this bill.
A week after getting home the phone calls started coming in from the "passionate" Doctors offices and hospitals wanting to know when I would be paying for thier services, to them it didnt matter that I couldn't work, had no insurance etc they wanted thier money. What it came down to is the Law allowing them to take my home, what money I had saved in the bank, everything! And they still want more, they threaten to give me a bad creadit score, go for it the others that I owe already have.

So I became homeless not due to not having a job, not being able to work or not having insurance, but due to the Doctors and Hospitals that try to appear so kind and passionate about helping others and making comments like "We'll care for you whether or not you have insurance, its our job" all just to look good to the public, BULL!
As far as i'm concerend the doctors can sue away, they have nothing more from me to get, I will pay back my debts always have always will but for now the Doctors have made more than enough from me to golf everyday of the week
I'm currently paying my medical bills at $1 a month, hey they can't say i'm not trying, but that is all they will get. if by some stroke of luck I win the lottery I may just pay it all off and be done with it but until then they can keep wasting thier time and money stuffing envelopes with feeble threats and harrasing me on the phone.

And Scotler you and any others that really do care for the health of others should be equally upset, afterall these practices of collection and denials to help someone in need due to various reasons make all those who are in the profession out of true kindness and passion and caring for others look just as bad, it is also unfair to you

You may ask yourself "Does he feel this way towards all medical profesionals?" . And my honest answer, Yes until someone can prove me wrong.

And to steal Jordans line "I hope you never find yourself in a similar position that I am in..."

[eno]

Fret ........ your situation is the perfect illustration for showing how the UK system works.
You were working and paying your taxes ... over here part of those taxes goes toward the NHS (National Health Service). National Insurance is 25% of your income if you are on a high wage ....... 10% for those on low incomes and benifits, yes most benifits are taxed at source. If you choose you can go private the NHS also accepts private patients and will take the money off the insurance companies ... this is not entitle you to preferential treatment unless you go into a private hospital.

As has been stated before all systems are open to abuse .... but most of the benifits of those that refuse to work are taxed anyway so they are still paying.

Overall ....... you can't complain about a system that attempts to cater for everyone ... even when its creaking at the seams.

[Smoke2much]

How do you respond to that?

My thoughts are with you Fret.  

The NHS was set up to prevent this kind of thing from happening, I am politically quite right wing.  I despise the "Nanny State" and all that it stands for but I am passionate about the right to a certain minimum standard of health and treatment free at the point of delivery.  There have been campaigns for years to deny smokers, drug users and alcoholics free treatment on the grounds that their illnesses are self inflicted.

If this is the case the ban should be extended to drivers, car passengers, DIY'ers, the obese, pregnant women, sports injuries and type I diabetics because in the majority of these cases their illness/injury is a direct result of their life style.

Scottler states that he will never find himself in a bad situation because he is prepared for the worst.  I am prepared for the worst in that I have paid National Insurance.

How prepared can you or must you be?  Let us assume (worst case and not aimed at you personally Scotter, you just gave me the opportunity ) he is driving down the freeway at 2MPH below the stated speed limit.  He is mildly distracted by changing the track on his CD player and reacts too slowly to prevent crashing into the car infront.

In the accident his left foot is traumatically amputated and he looses the use of his right arm.  The driver of the other car is paralysed from the neck down.  The police prosecute for dangerous driving and he is convicted, on the grounds of this his insurance company refuse to pay out in the up coming case from the other driver.

You end up in a very bad position I'm sure you'll agree.  It isn't far fetched I have seen it happen, low speed accidents in modern cars can cause horrendous injuries.

All the insurance and savings in the world will not help you and in the private health/welfare culture you are stuffed.

Again I have to say that this is not a personal attack even if it seems to be.  It worries me that is all.

I hate supporting the low life predators that syphon money from the state and provide nothing in return, it makes me sick.  The less deserving these people are the more they perceive their benefits as a right.  This is the price that I pay for knowing that if I was to not make it home after work tomorrow my wife and daughter would not be starving next week.  It's that simple.  It's the price for knowing that if I was to develop some rare and scary cancer I would get treatment costing millions and it wouldn't cost me a penny and should I survive and return to work my premiums would be unaffected.

It's a choice between supporting a relative few pieces of scum who lead short and dull lives, or having the opportunity to starve on the streets after losing my job/house or whatever.

I like the fact we disagree, it gives me opportunity to vent my spleen a little.  I can't say what I think to the theiving little scabs when they pitch up in A&E at 2.00AM inebriated and looking for trouble!

Will

[Scottler]

I can't say what I think to the theiving little scabs when they pitch up in A&E at 2.00AM inebriated and looking for trouble!

I thought they only came to MY ER...good to know.

[jordonj]

Some of you may know Heather Sherman...she does some of the best repaints out there...she is in a similar situation...Even at the local supermarket, a woman had torn something in her shoulder, but couldn't get excused from lifting anything heavy because she had no insurance and couldn't afford to go to a doctor and get a note.  I worked at a place not too long ago where a middle-aged woman badly injured her shoulders working there, and had to fight tooth and nail to get them to pay for her treatment.  Ironically, this is a place that exists to give developmentally disabled (downs syndrome and the like) people a place to work  ::)...she just happend to be one of the regular employees who did the jobs clients couldn't do.

And to steal Jordans line "I hope you never find yourself in a similar position that I am in...

No problem using that line, but it's spelled Jordon...preferably with a J at the end.  We don't want to give Fozzer any ideas now do we?

[Hagar]

[quote]Even at the local supermarket, a woman had torn something in her shoulder, but couldn't get excused from lifting anything heavy because she had no insurance and couldn't afford to go to a doctor and get a note.