Climate Change/Global Warming

[expat]

This is one of the single most common folleys-it being 90 degrees has absolutely nothing to do with climate, it has to do with WEATHER.  There is a distinct difference between the two-

CLIMATE is the sum total of everything.  Average temperatures, precipitation, etc.  This remains (or is supposed to remain) relatively stable.  The average global temperature is around 57ish (F) if I remember correctly.

WEATHER is the momentary state of the climate.  You can't say "it's 110 degrees out, it must be global warming" any more than you can say "I woke up this morning and it was 20 degrees, global warming is a bunch of crap."

I cannot stress this enough-when the "global temperature rise" is spoken of, they're talking about an average, not a weather report.

And if I may be blunt, it is absolutely unacceptable to say this is a load of crap.  Unfortunately, that is like saying you believe its crap that the earth revolves around the sun (actually some of those nutters do still exist!), or that the laws of Physics are crap, etc.

We're strictly (or at least I'm strictly) talking about measureable scientific FACT here, not theory.  Global temp is rising, that is FACT.  Th effects of even a couple degrees rise will be bad, FACT.  How much it will continue to rise, how much are we contributing, what will be the long-term effects: THEORY.  It is important to differentiate between the two before calling one or the other crap.

When George Dubya, the man with the power to change things does not believe, (mainly to do with business and how much they pay into party funds I suspect), then we really don't have much chance to change anything. Come to that, any President. Can't have

[beaky]

WARNING, IMPORTANT INFORMATION

MOOOO

I am so very sorry to do this during a serious discussion, but it was just too "doom and gloom" here, so I thought we should get some practical ideas to combat pollution.  Is anyone else thinking open season on Holsteins?...

Good point... beef production on its present scale is not very environmentally sound for many reasons; methane being just one of them.

[beaky]

[quote]
When George Dubya, the man with the power to change things does not believe, (mainly to do with business and how much they pay into party funds I suspect), then we really don't have much chance to change anything. Come to that, any President. Can't have

[Hagar]

Environmental effects of warfare

One small example: [quote]At the end of the Persian Gulf War in the spring of 1991, 732 oil wells were set ablaze in Kuwait. Approximately 550 wells were still burning in May and June, when a group of scientists began to study the properties and climatic impact of the dense smoke that rose from them.

Significant environmental pollution and changes in the regional weather resulted from the fires. Air temperatures below the plumes were reported to be about 7C lower than in adjacent areas without smoke. Smoke plumes covered tens of thousands of square kilometers, contributing to Bahrain experiencing that year its coldest May in 35 years. Average temperatures were about 4

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]...mmm.....Global Warming may very well be a fact,

[beefhole]

We can't alter the cycle. We're just too insignificant. If the global temperature, on a geological time scale, was a big, ten meter, peak-to-peak sine wave... We "might" be able to put a millimeter or two ripple in it.. if that.

Good post Brett, but this is a section that needs a big THEORY label.  No one knows anything for sure in this aspect (actually a majority of scientists in the field think that humans are contributing greatly, but that's beside the point).

And I couldn't agree more about the extremists.

if its heating up everywhere else around the world, why is arizona cooling down? we rarely reached over the 110s this summer.

Excellent question.  I again point you to the definition of the global temp-it's an average.  Global warming means some places heat up, some places cool down.  For example, it's been four straight Christmases here in Philly without any real snow.  When I was in elementary school, we used to get feet upon feet.

HOWEVER-these in and of themselves do not indicate any kind of climate shift.  A span of five, even ten years in terms of the climate timeline is miniscule, and it's not uncommon for the climate to swing a little bit in certain areas.  But when it does swing, at least historically, the global average remains constant.  That's not happening right now.  Again, global warming does not mean everywhere gets warmer, just the earth as a whole.

...mmm.....Global Warming may very well be a fact,  but what started the last  ICE AGE...and more to the point what ended the last ICE AGE? You guessed it GLOBAL WARMING!.........sure as hell it wasn't brought on by MAN, neither was it bovine flatulence or any other of the million and one suggestions...........it comes and it goes....and it's it's here to stay for a long time......get used to it............commoner

A little research into why the scientists are sqwuaking about this might reveal why it's not the normal climate shift.  

We can know the global temperature thousands of years in the past by drilling in the antarctic ice-each ice layer is like rings on a tree, containing a wealth of information.  We've mapped the last ice age (or two), and the reason this climate shift is raising so much alarm is because it's happening much, much, much more rapidly than did the warming before.  Yes, the planet does indeed go through these cycles, but not as quick as has been measured in the last 50 or so years, when the rate of global temperature change has absolutely skyrocketed in comparison to the previous ice ages-this is normally a slow process.  However, if the current rate of warming continues-

In the next 50 years, the temp will rise 1-4.5 degrees F
In the next 100 years, the temp will rise up to 10 degrees F (this is catastrophic)

Will it rise that much? We have no way of knowing.  What we know for sure is that its happening much faster, and this is the key peice of evidence for the argument that claims humans are greatly contributing.

[rootbeer]

Absolute horsehillary. Pure bullclinton. If we supposedly can't stop it, how did we start it? Global warming has its origins in/on the Sun. We gonna change that??

[Politically Incorrect]

.mmm.....Global Warming may very well be a fact,  but what started the last  ICE AGE...and more to the point what ended the last ICE AGE? You guessed it GLOBAL WARMING!.........sure as hell it wasn't brought on by MAN, neither was it bovine flatulence or any other of the million and one suggestions...........it comes and it goes....and it's it's here to stay for a long time......get used to it............commoner

Exactly, that was the same point I made the last time this argument started and proved it with evidence to back it up in which no one could claim otherwise.

It is just that this is a no win argument with those who have been brainwashed into believing what the media wants them to, they are also the first to blame Government. They also have no hard evidence that this is something that we as humans have control over let alone are accelerating the process. It is all theory and the real hard scientific facts prove that this is a constant cycle the Earth has been in way before we even came around.

Like mentioned earlier, we heard your spews about acid rain, the upcoming Ice Age etc... in the past which amounted to absolutly nothing, so what will be the topic you rant on about after the next election cycle is done and over with?

You should be more concerned with what the Government will do about the impending Asteroid that will some day strike the Earth. It is going to happen, or how about the fact that at anytime the Earths magnetic poles are going to flip, this is a natural phenomenon that has happened in the past and is going to happen again. Or are these concerns being saved for when the Global Warming issues finally losses its luster?

Environmentalist are as brainwashed as PETA they think they are doing Godly like work but in fact they are making matters worst by spreading false perceptions with no hard evidence to back it up, this is also why they need to change their argument every year or so.

You can go ahead and drive your "fuel efficient" cars, and fire up your wind mills and be happy little do gooders, but leave my way of life alone, as I am not doing any more to the Earths "Global Warming" than you are dispelling the carbon dioxide out of your mouth every time you feel you need to tell me how to live

It is a tad chilly this morning think I may go out and light some tires on fire to warm up a little and munch on some Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[Politically Incorrect]

[quote]
When George Dubya, the man with the power to change things does not believe, (mainly to do with business and how much they pay into party funds I suspect), then we really don't have much chance to change anything. Come to that, any President. Can't have

[Hagar]

It kills me every time I read a post by the ill-informed. You really need to study how Government works, Sure a President is the most powerful person in office, but in order for him to get anything done it has to go through a series of votes, Those are votes made by the people who work under him

I don't disagree with your main points but I'm sure that the-ex-pat is well aware of how government works. I take it that his reference to the US President meant the US Government as a whole.

Like many others of my generation I've become more sceptical as I grow older. There are very few politicians that I trust & the same goes for scientists & self-styled "experts". In the UK senior politicians of all main parties have jumped on the bandwagon in a cynical attempt to gain popularity. This means that anyone disagreeing with the official line has no effective opposition or alternative to vote for.

A lot of hot air is being bandied about on this subject & quite frankly it's difficult to know who to believe. The problem is that if the doom-mongers are right we all have to do something about it or it's no use at all. Not only that but we have to start doing it right now. Somehow I don't see that happening.

[Politically Incorrect]

Well I quoted him, but to use as a general reference as to what most people believe the president could do, Not as a post aimed back directly at his comments.

But this is the general thought put into peoples heads, that the President is the one in charge of making a difference and unless he/she does something then nothing will be done at all.
Never once have I heard or read the GW doesn't believe that this may be a issue, but again there are more important issues at hand now than what may happen a 100+ years from now to deal with, not to mention in any Presidents term in office there is no way anything sufficient can be done in that short of time. How one can expect someone in 8 years to fix issues that are 1000 years in the making is beyond me. And then there is the fact that if the "fixing" process was started the next President would probably stop it anyway. In Politics it is always one step forward two steps back and that is the fault of two parties that think for themselves not the public they serve.

[expat]

It kills me every time I read a post by the ill-informed. You really need to study how Government works, Sure a President is the most powerful person in office, but in order for him to get anything done it has to go through a series of votes, Those are votes made by the people who work under him  

Made up of people representing both political parties. Common sense tells you that Republicans will side with Republican and Democrats with Democrats, you have a Republican President you can be assured few Democrats will vote in his favor, no matter what good it is for the people they serve

I'm sorry but our National Security and the riddance of Terrorists is more important to me that the world warming by 1 degree every 100 years. And the hard fact is there is little the President can do about it no matter what Political Party it is they are in

Seriously think about it what do you expect him to do? Ban immediately any and all vehicles that get less than 30mpg?
Ok fine lets see what that outcome would be.

One good thing pollution would go down, good so we are now preventing Global warming?? But wait there seems to be repercussion.
People can't get to work, they can't make money to buy a better car, or they can buy a better car BUT there are none because the factories are closed due to their emissions!
But if the factories are closed what about the workers? Oh they don't have jobs anymore, wouldn't matter they can't get to work anyway becasue thier cars get less than 30mpg. Well no cars means less use of oil. Don't need oil anymore, so get rid of those workers.....etc.etc..etc...

But who cares we have stopped Global Warming and we can breath easier, but no how do I feed my family? there are no grocery stores anymore becasue there is a ban on oils and vehicles so nothing gets to market, not to mention I haven't worked so I have no money to start with......No electricity because we no longer use fossil fuels to produce it, windmills don't work since now the winds are no longer as strong as they used to be so guess we burn candles to see at night....hmmm wax what is wax made from? Damn now what?

Domino effect to the extreme.

Think about it, i am curious as to what exactly it is that you think that our President or any President should do about this issue that would not produce a more negative effect against society than anything about Global warning will. My guess is that your clueless now since you never think of the bigger picture

I am well aware how the American political system works and when I refer to the President, I refer to the government as a whole.

As for the rest  ::) Unfortunately America would not know subtlety if it hit her in the face. Who said anything about banning anything? It is the small changes that make a difference. All new cars have to be capable of decent mileage; new factories have to have emission curbs, recycling, every thing, paper, glass, cars. The airline industry is way, way ahead on the recycling of aircraft. Eventually the old is overtaken by the new.
What IF global warming is for real? The Mid West turns to a dust bowl, no rain, crops fail what will the US do then, I don't know of any corn rich countries that could be invaded, do you?
It has to be about preserving natural resources. We are using it all up faster that it can be replaced. The earth has another 400 million years before it all come to an end. She is not a bottomless pocket, things will run out. A by product of moderation today, is that we could change the effect we are having on our planet. So yes, cars under 30 mpg should be got rid of as fast as possible. According to the United States Geological Survey we have about 30 years of oil left, 80 at the max if more is found. That is our life time. A start would be to force better mileage from cars, and then we could possibly get a bigger breathing space for finding new fuels, 50 years instead of 30. The Boeing 737 is over 30 years old. It is older than the predicted fuel reserves and still flying. It will be interesting to be able to see an air Bus A380 in a museum in my lifetime.
But why should I give a hoot, 30 years, I will be retired, and don't need to drive to work any more. I can sit in front of my solar powered computer, playing FS73 downloading old timers such as the Triple 7 and Euro Fighter, telling my son, I saw these fly once. Global warming, greater priority, cut down on oil it won't last forever and we have no viable alternative at this time. Global climate change would be a handy by product.

Matt

[flymo]

[quote]...mmm.....Global Warming may very well be a fact,

[expat]

in my view commoner is 100% correct, our planet is in a cycle where basicly it warms up it freezes it warms up it freezes... only the strongest survive and the weakest perish........ just like it always has been on the blue marble

john

And without oil or an oil replacement, we are about the weakest  :'(

Matt

[flymo]

thing is mate

in the 70's we were going to run out by 1990 then it was 2000 and now its been bumped once more. ignore those eejits and thier estimations.  
also if all the politicians are so botherd about global warming maybe they could get some more eco friendly modes of transport because all the brits politics drives around in jags whihc guzzle fuel, blair now has a private jet to buzz him around and bush has air force 1 which is just a co2 emitting machine.

ignore politicians and enojy your life

john