YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Hagar » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:07 pm

I once believed in the death penalty for murder & some other crimes. I have since changed my mind for three reaons.

The first is that our legal system is by no means perfect. I could name many examples of innocent people who were executed before the law was changed in my country. These would not have been found guilty if they had been tried today but there's no way to say sorry & bring them back to life. I could also name similar instances of innocent people being convicted after the law was changed & later found innocent, some after serving many years in prison.

The second reason is that I believe it is morally wrong to take another human life. If this is done by someone in the name of the state that makes the executioner & the state no better than the murderer.

The third is that when the the death penalty was in force in this country it didn't prevent murder & was therefore not a deterrent.

I have no answer to what should be done with the people who commit these crimes. I wish I did but I think the death panalty is used as a form of revenge.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby ATI_7500 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:08 pm

That really gets my back up - you could end up working next to a murderer!


If he feels that he had done something wrong, I don't see a problem there.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Saitek » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:08 pm

I am only in favour of murderers being executed and only when evidence is compelling.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby ATI_7500 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:10 pm

I'd like to see a case in which 100% of the evidence was against the murderer. There is no perfect proof out there.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Papa9571 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:20 pm

Hagar you have very valid points with which I agree to a certain extent. As I dont know what country you live in I can't comment on that situation.

However that said I also look at it this way. Why give a murderer 15-20 years with the possibility of parole? When that individual is released they will almost certianly kill again. If you were on the jury that decided his original sentence, and he was realeased and killed again, how would that make you feel? Wouldn't you be partially responsible for the second and consecutive murders before he was caught and placed in jail again?


As for jury duty if you want to see the legal system in action up close report for jury duty the next time you are summoned. It's an experience I will never forget.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Saitek » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:28 pm

Some good points all round - but I know it is widely believed that in the US for example removing the death penalty would really make murder increase.
As for the UK (that is where Doug lives Papa) I named a few criminals that I thought deserve the death penalty. Somehow it seems unjust that someone can kill hundreds and a country can only impose a comfy life in a jail.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Papa9571 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:32 pm

Actually there are 12 states in the US that do not have the death penalty.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby eno » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:39 pm

I believe that in certain cases the death penalty should be used ...... (and don't forget the death penalty has not been repealed for some crimes it just isn't used) Shipman, Peter Sutcliffe (The Yorkshire Ripper), Fred and Rosemary West and The Moors Murderers. All proven mass murderers they should have been sentenced to death rather than spending millions of pounds keeping them in prison. Harold Shipman and Fred West should have been excecuted within 24 hours of their sentances rather than having the satisfaction of choosing their time and method of death. These cases were proven without any doubt and the death sentence should only be reserved for such cases. The "Life sentence" should mean LIFE ... not 15-25 years and parole after 10.

Another issue in the same vain ..... not wanting to digress is the anonymity given to high profile offenders.... It shouldn't be done, make them fend for themselves as their victims have to.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Hagar » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:40 pm

Hagar you have very valid points with which I agree to a certain extent. As I dont know what country you live in I can't comment on that situation.

I live in England which is part of the UK. I specify England as we have different laws to Scotland where Saitek lives. There are various types of murder & they cannot be classified in the same way. For example: What the French call the crime passionel where the offender is never likely to repeat their offence. These people are often treated with leniency by the courts. At the other end of the scale there is the mass murderer or rapist like Huntley. I believe that if they're found guilty these people should be locked away for life with no chance of parole. How we treat them while they're serving this sentence is not for me to say. I think that some have it far too easy & simply laugh at the law. Others might be ill & should be entitled to treatment. I don't belive that it's possible to treat a paedophile or habitual rapist/murderer & they should be permanently removed from society.

To be effective any sentence should be a deterrent. If it doesn't prevent people committing the crime it's not a deterrent.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Saitek » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:45 pm


To be effective any sentence should be a deterrent. If it doesn't prevent people committing the crime it's not a deterrent.


Well the interesting thing is - those among us who don't think  death is the answer think proper life in prison is. I wouldn't be surprised to find, if it is true, that many people uphold that. I wonder why so many lifers walk the streets in 10-20 years time.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby commoner » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:47 pm

...mmm....I agree Hagar with some of your arguments, but why, tell me,  does the death penalty have to be a DETERRENT? To my mind it is a PUNISHMENT and that justifies it's use when there is no doubt that the perpetrator is guilty of taking another's life. It sure as hell does away with any possibility of reoffending of which there are many instances....Only this last week or so in the UK as you must have noticed a guy lost his life within hours of a murderer being released. Papa makes this point and yes I would feel guilty mysef had I been responsible for his release. Too often in this country (UK) the punishment doesn't even come near to fitting the crime.  An eye for an eye...etc.....remember that?...commoner :-/
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Saitek » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:01 pm

Yes, Commoner - 'm not sure I exactly like the idea of eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but I do like Justice! There is a difference. It is not revenge, but justice.

I would say the the death penalty is both a punishment and a deterrent. It does prevent people form doing it, that is a known fact, but just because many people are still murdered doesn't reder it ineffective. I think it is a suitable punishment. There is no comparison to taking away a life to anything. Jailing a multiple rapist for 15 or 20 years and a murderer the same is just a crime in itself. The victims still live, they are still there. The victim of murder is gone for ever.  I for one can't see that it is just.

But as a reminder to everyone - Please keep polite/cool. The thread was kindly reopened and is being monitered closely by watchful eyes. ;)
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Woodlouse2002 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:34 pm

After killing someone a murderer will feel one of two ways. Either he will regret it completely, or he won't give a damn. If he regrets it, then he is left with it on his conscience for the rest of his life. Therefore he would no doubt suffer more in a prison cell than if he had a lethal injection. If the murderer doesn't give a damn then he obviously has such a low regard for human life that killing him won't make any difference. He still wouldn't care.

Two wrongs never make a right, so killing someone for murder is just a waste of time. And Saitek, as a christian shouldn't you be preaching "turn the other cheek" instead of the jewish "eye for an eye"?

Personally I would have nothing against the death sentence if it was done by a firing squad made up of the judge and the jury at the trial. If they feel that the death sentence is what he deserves then they shouldn't have any issues with being the ones pulling the trigger. And if they don't want to be in that position, then they'll have to think extra hard about sentencing him. :P
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Hagar » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:41 pm

I'm delighted it's been reopened as it gives me the chance to reply to direct questions. One thing I hate more than anything is when a thread is locked before I have a chance to reply. This is terribly frustrating & often gives the wrong impression to anyone reading it.  I would rather the whole thing was deleted. I have no wish to offend anyone & always try to put over my points clearly. I know some people will passionately disagree which is why this topic is considered a tad risky.

does the death penalty have to be a DETERRENT? To my mind it is a PUNISHMENT and that justifies it's use when there is no doubt that the perpetrator is guilty of taking another's life.

I think there are three reasons for a criminal sentence. One is to remove offenders from society to prevent them reoffending. Two is to punish the offender & three is to act as a deterrent for others contemplating the same thing. A fourth might be to rehabilitate the offender so they stand a chance when their sentence is finished.

Whether the sentence fits the crime is another area altogether. I feel that sentencing is generally too soft in this country today & there is too much talk about the offenders' Human Rights. Some of these crimes are so terrible they gave up any Human Rights as far as I'm concerned. For a society to succeed you must have rules & everyone must abide by them. It's up to the judiciary to make sure these rules are enforced when offenders are brought to book. If I'm to belive the media too many habitual criminals are released on parole only to immediately reoffend. This needs looking into immediately. One of the reasons is there are simply not enough places for them in prisons. If this is the case more prisons should be built. This might not be the solution but nobody seems capable of thinking of another way.

I would say the the death penalty is both a punishment and a deterrent. It does prevent people form doing it, that is a known fact

I would like to see your evidence for that Ben. All the time there's a risk of one innocent person being executed I'm against the death penalty.
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Re: YOUR thoughts on the death penalty.

Postby Craig. » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:53 pm

I would say the the death penalty is both a punishment and a deterrent. It does prevent people form doing it, that is a known fact  


I'm sorry but thats not true. Murder rates today even in the US alone are just as high if not higher than they were when there was no significant death penalty in many states. I am not picking on the US just one of the countries that uses it often. Look at California it has a large Death row, most of these are either given retrials and found innocent or die naturally because the state doesnt carry out the execution. Detterant it is not. It might deter those people who might murder someone in an anomolis case. Those who might be angry for some reason, these are the minority. Those who usually commit murder have mental problems which cant be stopped with the threat of a death sentence. Doug mentioned the possibility of punishment and rehab which in most cases is the best solution. If a person can be deemed unfit for re-entry to society then they can be locked up for life. If you think prison for the major crimes is a hoilday haven, ask your local prison the chance to stay for a couple of days.
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