Eurofighter Woes

[Hagar]

The tornado was a euro colaboration and that was a huge succes (not to mention a beauty of an aircraft.)

The Tornado is certainly a nice looking aircraft. I'm not convinced it was/is a huge success. It was originally intended to be a multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). This "one size fits all" concept was never likely to be practical. In the event, the first production models were fighter-bombers. Several different versions were developed to fulfil various roles for different air forces. It took 12 years to develop although it was delivered on time & within budget. Meanwhile, the best low-level aircraft the RAF possessed was the Buccaneer. It proved its value in the Gulf War & carried on while problems with the maritime attack Tornado were ironed out. This wonderful old bird, originally rejected by the RAF, was finally retired in March 1994, 36 years after its first flight.

[Crumbso]

The Buccaneer had its fair share of teething problems as well. The tornado is currently doing pretty well for itself and been very helpful in Gulf 2.

The greatest aircraft ever owned was the sea vixen. had HUGE potential and labour wiped it out of view as usual.

[Hagar]

The Buccaneer had its fair share of teething problems as well. The tornado is currently doing pretty well for itself and been very helpful in Gulf 2.

Most new aircraft have teething problems. Going back to the original topic, I feel the bugs with the Eurofighter should have been fixed by now. LOL

The greatest aircraft ever owned was the sea vixen. had HUGE potential

We've been down this road before & will have to agree to disagree on this point.
The RAF didn't want the Buccaneer & would never have accepted another hand-me-down from the Fleet Air Arm. Did you know that a supersonic Buccaneer was proposed at one time?

Around this time the TSR.2 project to specification GOR.339 (an attack aircraft that could have been described as a 'Super-Buccaneer') was coming under attack from many sides, and the Admiralty played their part in its downfall by pushing for the Buccaneer as a near-ideal aircraft to satisfy the requirement, yet costing far less than the increasingly expensive TSR.2. Strangely, Blackburn did not take full advantage of this. In any case, the RAF were extremely hostile to the idea of operating an aircraft designed for the Navy, and it found no favour with them at all. While Blackburn produced a brochure for the Ministry of Supply on the Buccaneer, they did not produce designs for a truly upgraded Buccaneer until after the TSR.2 had already been cancelled. Among designs that included a fighter variant (the P.140) and a more versatile strike variant (the P.145), the P.150 stood out as the most advanced. This would have been a supersonic (mach 1.8 ) Buccaneer with extended fuselage and new wings for the long-range strike role (i.e. the TSR.2's role, later to be fulfilled by the MRCA, or Tornado). However, this never left the drawing board.

Now that would have been quite an aircraft & something I would dearly love to have seen. Unfortunately, most of this is pure conjecture.

[Craig.]

looks a heck of alot like the F4 phantom:) with a few differances.
the tornado definatly prooved its worth in gulf war 2 since it was the first low level bomber into the heart of baghdad during the first wave of strikes, however its really starting to age, but the eurofighter really isnt the only to replace it, we need another heavy fighter bomber,

[Hagar]

the eurofighter really isnt the only to replace it, we need another heavy fighter bomber

This is my whole point. So what do you suggest, another joint project taking 10 years or more? The Eurofighter first flew in 1994. It's already obsolescent & the RAF have yet to receive their first example. Even then, I guarantee the avionics & weapons systems will not be up to scratch. Remember the problems with the Nimrod? The Eurofighter was again designed around the multi-role concept which has already been proven unworkable. Meanwhile, other countries have had similar or better types in service for many years.

[ATI_7500]

our MiG-29 will be given to poland and our F-4 are the newest versions,also operated by israel and turkey.

[Craig.]

well i would say a new plane being put on the drawing board immediatly as the first action, infact at least 2 planes to be brought into service, that way we will have the JSF for our naval needs, then two new planes, one an agile fighter(which the eurofighter if given an upgrade could be used), and then a heavy bomber of completly new design to replace the tornado and jaguar, as you have said hagar the multi-role option is unworkable. we need to desperatly get back what was once a decent airforce. hell we could do with a few heavy bombers like the B52(but obviously a new plane) bear in mind the eurofighter is 20 years old now, its first flight was as you said almost 10 years ago.
and we need to stop all the joint co-operation business, this is what has brought the problems up. it is why the eurofighter is so far behind.
it may cost more but its, what we need now. we have to ability to create proper stealth aircraft, but as was an agreement with the US we wouldnt use that ability on any of the joint co-operation aircraft. so we are left without any real stealth capability.
and with all due respect. we dont need hand me down aircraft from russia, we dont need hand me down aircraft from the US. We have shown the ability to create some of the most versitile planes on our own, does the name harrier mean anything, or the vulcan? sadly politics have gotten in the way of progress

[Hagar]

Not likely to happen I'm afraid. I believe we should cut our losses & purchase existing successful aircraft. The British aircraft industry is no longer capable of producing complex military aircraft. Aircraft production is now international. Even huge corporations like Boeing work in partnership with other companies.

You mention the Harrier. This is close to my heart as the BAe Dunsfold facility (a few miles from my home) where this revolutionary aircraft was developed & built was closed some time ago. Many of my friends lost their jobs as a result. The experienced & talented workforce are now dispersed far & wide & will never work as a team again. Some found jobs as baggage handlers at Gatwick. The QA Manager I used to deal with is now a CAA surveyor.

[Crumbso]

Aah well yes I suppose that the EF is suited to air to air combat and that it does pretty well, (only matched by the f-22 which only has a 2% better victory rate on the air combat tests) A new fighter bomber is a good idea but the funding is the biggest problem.

I think we will have to agree to disagree because the Vixen too was due to have a supersonic varient as well. It was very close to fruition but the gov decided that the harrier was the answer to every navy possibility (I pretty much doubt that although it is a very good close support aircraft.) therefore downsized the fleet and got rid of our carriers.

The day I will entertain buying another countries aircraft as a main fighter or bomber is the day I die, I'm still very patriotic. We need the conservatives in office(not with Ian Duncan Smith, god what a bore.)

[Hagar]

Crumbso. I'm as patriotic as the next guy but you have to face facts. This wouldn't be the first time we've used US aircraft. The F-4 Phantom gave excellent service for a while & what about the JSF? Without wishing to get political I might remind you that it was Duncan Sandys (a true blue Conservative & son-in-law of Winston Churchill) who first suggested the policy that started the decline of Britain's aircraft industry & ultimately led to the cancellation of the TSR.2 & your precious Sea Vixen.
http://www.aemann.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aircraft/hyper/sandys.html

[Crumbso]

Ah I stand corrected. After readiong that article so many great aircraft were cancelled. I'm now in favour of my own political party the Simulationist's. Don't car about taxes or NHS but I will see that proper funding goes to our great Armed Forces. (God knows we seem to need it these days, specially with the state it is in now.)

I'm still a little rash being such a young whippersnapper.

We had participation in the JSf project giving great help on the subject of V/STOL subject. I was never really happy with the decision to get the phantom seeing as more Buccs were on order till the government decided that a US aircraft was a better idea.


Oh well.

Crumbso

[Hagar]

Well, I have the advantage of living through those times. It saddened me to see all those great names that were part of our aviation heritage disappear for ever. One thing I learned through all this. All politicians are the same & I don't trust any of 'em.

[Craig.]

in the end we will have lots of input on the JSF, not just STOVL(not as good as the harrier in this department, but has the supersonic advantage)
i have heard we will also be lending alot of expertise in a few other areas.

[Ivan]

IMHO the duthc government would be better off if they bought some custom-made Su-30MK's

[Smoke2much]

You would think that Ivan, after all although you are not Russian you do like Russian aircraft LOL

I think you are probably right though.  Either that or some Hornets.

Will