Another Interesting Ponderance??

[Hagar]

[quote]I know, for Australians to get anything that approached the 'tallies' (hence the expression 'tally-ho' which tranlates to something like "There's 'tally' or scoring to be had over there")

[ATI_7500]

the luftwaffe pilots had a lot more combat experience due to the entire war than the allied or russian pilots due to the spanish civil war,where they could develop some new tactics and strategies. the allies used their old pre-WW2 tactics or even still WW1 tactics until the middle of the BoB.

and russian airplanes were no "turkeys" they were heavily armoured.  the IL-2 was even called "airplane made of concrete", because it was nearly invincible and had little weaknesses (oil cooler).

even the western front was a "turkey shoot" for the germans. the best german western front pilot was Heinz B

[packercolinl]

I'll go with Hagar on the TallyHo.My father and other family members were RAAF(Dad trained for aircrew Europe)and TallyHo was purely Brit.
Dads mother was German if you're wondering on the connection.

[Professor Brensec]

Not sure about this Brensec. It might be the Aussie definition. I always understood that Tally-ho! is the hunting cry still used by the foxhunting fraternity when the prey is spotted. In rough terms it means "There he is - let's go get him". Most of the regular RAF BoB pilots were officers, from the "upper classes" & brought up in the hunting tradition.

You misunderstand. I'm noy saying that "tally-ho" is an Australian expression, in fact, I know it's British, and I also realise it originates from fox hunting, rather than WWII fighter pilot lingo.
But I read, fairly recently, (I'll try and remember where and give the link), that the expression meant lterally "there is a fox (or whatever the prey might be) to add to our 'Tally"). Tally meaning - count or score and Ho meaning - there or over there (as in "Forward Ho")

That's what I was alluding to when I placed in parentheses the "(hence the expression......blah blahh)".

I, in no way, meant that the expression was not British or that it originated from anything other than the 'Fox hunt'.  ;D

ATI, I'm sure we're all in agreeance that the Germans had the benefit of combat experience long before any of the Allies had the chance. At least more than one or two people along with myself have acknowledged this.

As far as the Russian planes not being 'fodder' is concerned. I acknowledge that Russian planes introduce to the skies later, say, after the tide turned at Stalingrad, were equal to, if not superior to the German planes. My point was that there was a very large amount of I-16's to be shot down in the first few months (and alot of the German kills would have been a result of these), and these planes were far slower, less manouevrable, not as heavily armed and the pilots, for the main part, were inexperienced. That is all I am saying.

We can all agree on the fact that, although the Germans did lead all party's in terms of new aviation developments (ie jet engines, rocket bombs etc), they didn't have the facilities to take advantage of these developments because of many reasons. Firstly, the Allied bombing was a continual hinderance to any kind of production. Hitler seemed to 'interfere' with the progress of some of the more successful developments (ie the Me262). And also the shortages of all types of materials and fuel made any efforts in new technologies minimally available. Add to all this the shortage of exprienced operators, especially pilots, and you have the situation that basically saved the Allies from suffering to any great degree from the result of most of these developments.  ;D

Of, course, while all this was going on, all the Allies were making thier own discoveries and developments, without any great deal of hinderance from bombing or shortages, in materials or manpower and experienced operators.  

[ATI_7500]

As far as the Russian planes not being 'fodder' is concerned. I acknowledge that Russian planes introduce to the skies later, say, after the tide turned at Stalingrad, were equal to, if not superior to the German planes. My point was that there was a very large amount of I-16's to be shot down in the first few months (and alot of the German kills would have been a result of these), and these planes were far slower, less manouevrable, not as heavily armed and the pilots, for the main part, were inexperienced. That is all I am saying.

some russian planes were superior to the german ones,but just at the end of the war (maybe from the end of '44 on) .
and those I-16s were quite manouverable and they were f***** slow...

We can all agree on the fact that, although the Germans did lead all party's in terms of new aviation developments (ie jet engines, rocket bombs etc), they didn't have the facilities to take advantage of these developments because of many reasons. Firstly, the Allied bombing was a continual hinderance to any kind of production.

no. the allies could certainly take out some V-2 or V-1 ramps,but the main part of the production was placed in secret undergroundfacitilies, as well as the aircraft production. the allies never achieved a complete stop of the aircraft production,maybe for a few days.

Hitler seemed to 'interfere' with the progress of some of the more successful developments (ie the Me262). And also the shortages of all types of materials and fuel made any efforts in new technologies minimally available. Add to all this the shortage of exprienced operators, especially pilots, and you have the situation that basically saved the Allies from suffering to any great degree from the result of most of these developments.  ;D

yeah. if hitler hadn't blocked the development of the 262 until '43, the allies would have had some more problems over the german sky.  ;)
but the true reason for the loss of air war was the incompetence and incapacity of g

[Hagar]

You misunderstand. I'm noy saying that "tally-ho" is an Australian expression, in fact, I know it's British, and I also realise it originates from fox hunting, rather than WWII fighter pilot lingo.
But I read, fairly recently, (I'll try and remember where and give the link), that the expression meant lterally "there is a fox (or whatever the prey might be) to add to our 'Tally"). Tally meaning - count or score and Ho meaning - there or over there (as in "Forward Ho")

That's what I was alluding to when I placed in parentheses the "(hence the expression......blah blahh)".

I understood what you meant old pal, just disagree with the derivation. I think it's commonly accepted that Tally-ho! is a hunting term. As with so many words in the English language the word "tally" has several definitions & comes from various sources. (This is what makes English so difficult to learn & fascinates silly old fools like me.) The "tally" in Tally-ho! is Norman in origin, from the word "taillis" originally translated as coppice. taillis [n.m.] copse [n.]
This is not the same "tally" used in counting scores. Middle English taly, from Anglo-Norman tallie, from Medieval Latin tallia, from Latin tlea, stick.
Literally translated, "Taillis au!" (the modern French "Ta

[Professor Brensec]

ATI, mate,

At the risk of creating an ongoing 'to and fro' exchange of ideas that can never really be put to rest, because most things can be judged a matter of opinion, I will just comment on a couple of your assertions.

True, the I-16 was a relatively manouevrable plane for what it was (age, design, size, weight etc), but my book puts it at a lower manouevring capability than most of the late 30's, early 40's fighters). But then again this is just the opinion of the one book author. Still I think we agree they were a fairly easy prey for the 109's and their experienced pilots - as we have both said - IN THE BEGINNING, which is when this whole 'air kill' discussion is based upon.

[HawkerTempest5]

I've been away a few days and missed this post going up so, if I may, I'd like to add a little personal note to this with regard to German airmen.
I recently had the great good fortune to meet Lt. General Gunther Rall, the third highest scoring ace of all time with 275 confirmed victories. Gunther scored almost all his victories on the Eastern front and was himself shot down eight times, broke his back and lost his left thumb.
I've now had the good fortune to meet quite a few of these brave men, from both sides and I consider it a great honour to meet these men. Whatever side they fought on, they are all heroes.

[ATI_7500]

The P51-D, with a range of just over 2,000 miles, allowed the bombers to reach their targets relatively safely. They also took the opportunity when escorting the bombers to destroy a good part of the remaining fighter strength of the Luftwaffe, and along with that was active in rocketing and staffing anything on the ground that moved. That plane was a marvellous advantage enjoyed by the Allies for which the Germans had no equal, nor any effective counter.
The ground attack capabilities of the British Typhoon and Tempest (along with the P47), made it necessary for the Germans to move at night only, or risk anihilation.

okay,i agree that the P-51 was an awesome plane,but it only had so much success ,because the germans already had a big loss of experienced pilots and fighters. i think the mustangs would have had many more problems,if they encountered a fully equipped luftwaffe.

To be perfectly honest, I'm very surprised the Reich held out for as long as it did. If just a couple of their new developments (say the me262) had reached high volume production and if they had had the experienced pilots, the USAAF and RAF and Russians would have been in big pooh!  

the germans still had some aces and even a 262 squadron consisting of aces only! (their leader was adolf galland)
and yes,they kicked some allied asses. but not enough...