The right to die

[Hagar]

[quote]It seems that people older than me, though, disagree.

[Scottler]

As for the generation thing, when you're young you think that you can make a real difference & change the world. Now I'm older I've realised that there's very little I can do no matter how strongly I might feel about some things. Some people might say I'm more tolerant now.

Maybe that's what it is.  I never really thought about it that way.  I think it terrifies me to think that it can't be changed, though, ya know?

I also think "Live and let live" to some extent.  I wouldn't intentionally try to change someone's mind, but (to use this thread as an example), I think I need to be fair to everyone's point of view and share with them the facts as I hear them.

If that changes their mind, great.  But my goal is never to go into something with the ultimate goal of converting them.

That said, if someone (again using this thread as an example) were to say something that changed my mind, so be it.   The truth to every challenge is out there.  But until we all know all sides, we'll never go anywhere...

[Saitek]

She's dead now. Murder, murder, murder. Those responsible should be tried and, if guilty, executed. I am angry.

BBC NEWS.

[Paz]

 Maybe we can stop hearing about it now.

[Anti-Societys Snake]

 Maybe we can stop hearing about it now.

My sentiments exactly.

[Fly2e]

[quote]Posted by: Paz Posted on: Today at 3:37pm
Maybe we can stop hearing about it now.

[jordonj]

Just a few more contradictions that should be pointed out...

Before I begin, this is not an opinion on politics.  All of what I state are facts.

From what I read, George Bush (a big player in this current controversey) signed a bill into law while he was governor of Texas.  This bill mandated that life support be removed from comatose or terminally ill patients if the family was unable to pay.  In addition he was such a big proponet of the death penalty, that he "streamlined" the process...more executions took place under him than any other Texas governor.

As Hagar pointed out: he is not in favor of the Death Penalty (nor am I for that matter).  From what Saitek said, he is in favor of the Death Penalty (but does not favor removing Terry from life support).  There are people who care a lot about the unborn, but at the same time, oppose things like welfare and socialized medicine...things that would benefit living children.  People are almost never consistent.

I have a friend who worked for some years in the ER.  He saw a 7-year-old boy (who was the victim of a car accident), left untreated because his family was medicare.  In the next bed, a 71-year-old woman (heart attack) was being treated, and eventaully sent to the OR for open-heart surgery...she was very financially well-off.

In the end the boy had gone beyond the point of no return by the time they got to him.  The woman, when she came out of surgery ended up in a nursing home because she was so weak (she ended up bedridden for the rest of her life, and died less than a year later).

All of these amount to a series of very complicated issues and we should not pretend otherwise.

[Scottler]

Socialized medicine is a brilliant idea.  Ask anyone who lives in Canada, and they'll tell you all about it.

Waiting periods of weeks on end to receive simple medical procedures, governmental control over what field you go into as a physician to satisfy their needs, driving hours to find the clinic that has an opening to remove your splinter, Not to mention the tax increases that would be required to PAY for such a system.  I think I can safely speak for most Americans when I say, 'Sure, take all you need.  I don't need it.'

...And that's in a country with a population  that is about 11% the size of the US population.

That really is the way to go, isn't it?

[StrutterGunner]

I agree with you all the way there Hyp. Our leaders cant seem to realize that our health system is failing, and failing quickly. Just a few days ago a woman died after leaving a hospital when she learned that she would have to wait over 8 hours just to be seen, and this is in the emergency room! Worst of all, whenever anyone in government mentions the solution, two tier health care (horror of horrors!!) theyre labelled as un-canadian. Rediculous. And we just keep sinking billions upon billions of our tax dollars into this sinkhole we call a health care system. Something major is going to happen before anything gets fixed. (Sorry, I realize this is a thread about right to life, just had to get this out.)

[jordonj]

Well, I don't know how to tell you two this, but the American insured way isn't working out very well either (situatations like the examples I pointed out are more common than you think).  People loose their houses over medical emergencies...none of whom are lazy or the like...

And brace yourselves...it's going to get worse as the  "baby boomer" population ages.

[Politically Incorrect]

I agree with Jordan, I am one that lost my home due to medical expenses in which I still owe $83,000 on.
Looking at a itemized medical bill is enough to kill you! $12 for a Tylenol? Give me a break!
After paying well over $30,000 and the fact that I no longer have my $140,000 home that I worked so hard for years on end, they are getting no more!! I have no more to give.

They threaten to sue me, go for it I have nothing left!
I also had to remind them that I didn't ask or seek thier help so they are lucky I gave them a penny. So if they want to sue then go ahead.

Im sick and tired of seeing those who are perfectly able to work sit on thier ass and collect money from the Government while us abled bodied bust our ass everyday to support them, but yet can't support ourselves or our families during and after a medical emergancy.
To say there needs to be some sort of "reform" is a understatment! And for the doctors and medical personel that see nothing wrong with the cost of help are obviously in the profession for the wrong reasons.

[Hagar]

People complain about the National Health Service in the UK but if it hadn't been for prompt diagnosis & the best possible treatment on two separate occasions my neighbour would be dead instead of enjoying life to the full. I recently helped him celebrate his 70th birthday but a few months beforehand I didn't think he could possibly make it. This didn't cost him or his family one penny & was there when he desperately needed it. The same applies to anyone living in this country which is one reason why so many people want to come here. It might have its problems but he won't hear a word against it.

The main problems with this system are the cost of drugs & what it's expected to cater for. People might disagree but I think there are certain non life-threatening things like cosmetic surgery you should be prepared to pay for. Yes, it's open to abuse but what system isn't? I know some people are passionately against "socialised medicine" as Hype calls it but our NHS was once the envy of the world. Treatment on demand - whether or not you can afford it. It's lost its way recently due to inevitable cutbacks & interference from politicians but from what I've seen I still think this is the best system.

PS [thinks]Here we go again. Why can't I keep my big mouth shut?[/thinks]

[Scottler]

As someone who works in the medical field, and the most expensive side of it (Emergency Medicine), I agree that some of the things that get billed are very expensive.  I dare say "overpriced".

But my question is this.  What happened to the medical insurance from the employer?  It's not always expensive, depending on the employer.  In fact, the insurance provided by both my and my wife's employer is completely cost free to us.  Admittedly, we're very lucky to find companies that offer free health care, but still.  

Sure, there are things that aren't covered.  But those cases are very rare in relation to things that are.  When those things happen, the affected do have my sincere sympathy.

But I don't think raising the taxes of EVERYONE to pay for those few cases is the solution.  

Also keep in mind that a significant part of the reason that health care is so ridiculously expensive in this country is because of litigation.  If I told you how much our ER physicians pay for medical malpractice insurance, you'd be appalled.  Even I knew it was expensive, but I had no idea HOW expensive until I came to this company.  It's literally in the tens of thousands of dollars annually.  If people weren't so quick to sue - and I wish I were allowed to tell you some of the things they sue over - then the med-mal costs would be down, and the cost of treatment would be lower.

I'm not saying there aren't changes needed...just that social programs aren't the answer.   You yourself, Jordon said:

Im sick and tired of seeing those who are perfectly able to work sit on thier ass and collect money from the Government while us abled bodied bust our ass everyday to support them, but yet can't support ourselves or our families during and after a medical emergancy.  

My initial reaction was that this wasn't relevant to this particular discussion.  But when I thought about it, it's a perfect illustration of how and why social programs aren't the end-all solution to everything.

Methinks this might need a separate thread.  lol

[jordonj]

 Im sick and tired of seeing those who are perfectly able to work sit on thier ass and collect money from the Government while us abled bodied bust our ass everyday to support them

Actually, most people on welfare want to work...there often aren't jobs available!  Not to mention the few jobs that are available don't pay nearly enough to live on.  And there's no hidden economy that feeds the poor, what exists are a series of hidden costs: if you can't afford the a deposit on an apartment (usually two month's rent) then you have to pay to live in a motel.  There are many homeless that don't get counted in my area because they are couch-surfing, or living with relatives.  Some have vans that double as homes.

Wonder how single mothers get by on $6.50 per hour in America?  The scary truth?  They don't.

And of course, several people I know say the solution is simple: GET A JOB.  I know several people who work two or three jobs and still have trouble making ends meet.  I myself am a computer technician who has only been able to find work as a substitute teacher (and believe me, I have been looking real hard).  Many places just look at my Resume and say "he's overqualified, he's not gonna stay" and so I don't get hired.  Part of the problem is the "increased efficiency" that gets boasted about: as long as employers can get the job done with fewer people, they can keep a lid on hiring.  Michigan is particularly in dire straits.

on the ligher side

Hmm...interesting where this is going...and still no insults despite opposing views!

[TacitBlue]

You mentioned medical insurance through the employer: Some companies, such as mine, use insurance companies that only like 3 doctors in the world accept. Okay, that was an exageration, but seriously there are no doctors in my town that accept my insurance, not even the ER. The closest ones are in Kansas City wich is about 50 miles away, and I flat out refuse to drive there for any reason. I hate big cities, and we have doctors here. So I guess if I get sick I just live with it.