The Shuttle was a MISTAKE?

[Hagar]

One or two things I would like to say before leaving it. You all know how I feel by now & my views are unlikely to change. I might not have presented my case too well which could easily lead to my feelings being misinterpreted. I'm neither as callous nor selfish as I might appear & have the reputation of helping anyone who needs it, especially those less fortunate than me. However, this does not affect the instinctive selfishness that we were all born with, the sense of self-preservation that helps make us what we are & helped us survive centuries of hardship & turbulent times. The less attractive side of this is demonstrated in times of shortage when I've seen ordinary & normally decent, respectable people actually fighting each other to get that last loaf of bread on the supermarket shelf - whether they actually need it or not.

[quote]Or maybe the over-population further stresses the issues of the "haves" and the "have nots" in the world.... and we exterminate huge populations via wars over stuff like oil, food, or the REAL issue... clean water.

[Woodlouse2002]

Do you not feel that having the opinion that the earth is doomed so we might as well start making arrangements to leave is the one sure way of ensuring that this planet is condemned?

If you didn't have the option of leaving this planet, which realistically you don't, then you would start to think that maybe we can turn it around. Make the world a more hospitable place again.

But no. Because the sun's going to explode in a zillion years time we have to get out now! Travel at least 34 million miles to some other stone in the solar system that doesn't support life as we know it and where we would definately be doomed should even the slightest thing go wrong. Because 34 million miles is a long way and any help would take years to arrive.

That is how space travel differs from submarine travel. If anything should go wrong on earth it will take hours, maybe days for help to arrive. If something goes wrong in space, you're on your own because help would be weeks in preparation and years in travelling even to the closest of coloneys at their closest.

We have enough problems on earth without looking for more. Population shouldn't be a problem on this planet. People are starving not because the planet can't produce enough food for them, but because the food doesn't get distributed to everyone. And the more people there are on the planet the more food gets produced and the better farming methods get etc. It was exactly this sort of wild population growth that sparked off the industrial revolution. The population grew, so man innovated new ways to produce ever more food to feed it. It's happened before and will happen again no matter what you say.

[Smoke2much]

I have just read the whole thread, quite an eye opener guys!  It seems that I've missed a bit since I've been away...

I thought that I'd add my little bit before I toddle off to college (Student Nurse again LOL!)

The Space program has been funded by various governments in various countries for various reasons.  It all began with the V2 rocket as a means of delivering a high explosive charge accurately in a distant city and culminated in delivering two men on a moon 80 million miles away.  Along the way we got the cruise missile and the ICBM.  We also got plastics, velcro and a whole host of other technologies as a direct result.

The pledge to put men back on the moon may be an election gimmick, but it may not.  There may be oil on Mars but there may not.  The question is not "What can we gain from sending astronauts to Mars in the terms of space travel?" but rather "What can we gain from sending astronauts to Mars in the terms of life on earth?".  For example we all know that oil is a limited resource and as a result the major car manufacturers are slowly beginning to release electric cars based on the Fuel Cell concept.  That's another development from the space program.

Space travel is not, IMHO, the answer to all of our woes but it is vital in our quest to be civilised.  There are many things that governments fund that could be viewd as a similar waste of the taxpayers dollar or pound or euro or whatever.  Take archeology, one of my passions.  Much of the funding comes from taxes but what of value does it really teach us?  Does it make my life quantifiably differant knowing that I live on the site of a stone age flint mine?  Nope.  Not in the slightest.  Research Astronomy is the same, do I really give a toss about the origins of the universe?  Nope, same number of drunks will abuse me on Saturday evening whether it was a big bang or a bearded geezer in 7 days.  It doesn't mean that the research should stop though.

Assuming then that the space program started 60 years ago and looking at the benefits we have gained from that research I would suggest that we continue and see what the next 60 years brings.  The "we" there is a little cheeky as I don't think that the UK has much of a program left....

Research for research's sake

Will

[Hagar]

[quote]I have just read the whole thread, quite an eye opener guys!

[TacitBlue]

You guys all seem to take for granted that no one will ever discover a method of faster than light travel. Maybe it really is impossible, in which case there are other theories to test. Heres where I sound like a dork, but have you ever heard of worm-holes? They may not be just the stuff of science fiction. This is the kind of thing that space scientists need to be working on. If we can find an earth-like planet out there somewhere (and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that they DO exists and we ARE NOT unique), it does us no good unless we can actually get to it.

[Woodlouse2002]

We have a Sci-fi casualty.

We also got plastics, velcro and a whole host of other technologies as a direct result.

Plastics and Velcro were both invented even before the first V2 took off as were a whole host of other inventions credited to the space race.  I don't know about plastic but velcro certainly has been in existence since the end of the 19th century.

PS. It just occurred to me that had things been different & von Braun & his colleagues been captured by the Russians it's quite likely that they would have got there first.

Had the Russians actually not given up trying to send a man to the moon they might have got there first with or without von Braun. They did everything else first after all.

[RichieB16]

His crimes were overlooked by the US government & he went on to develop the manned space program there, thus achieving his dream & becoming a national hero in the process.

I have never really heard of von Braun as being considered a national hero.  Most of what what I have heard was he was a pretty devout Nazi who was useful to us, as a result he was put to use despite his crimes.  He was a brilliant rocket designer but lacked many of the qualities of a human being so in my opinion, he is no hero.  But, maybe in the height f the cold war as Saturn V rockets were roaring to the moon-he was.  I don't know, I was around back then.  

I'd be interested to know Doug, was he really considered a hero of the space program (despite his history)?

PS. It just occurred to me that had things been different & von Braun & his colleagues been captured by the Russians it's quite likely that they would have got there first.

Interestingly enough, I took a class about this space program a year ago at the University of Oregon (it was easy  ;D).  One of the few things that I had never realised before I took that class was that the Russian's wern't overly interested in the German Rocket Scientists.  They were more interested in the rockets themselves.  Although they would have liked the scientists, they were happy with what they got (the majority of the rockets and only a few scientists.  The United States got the majority of the scientists and only a few rockets.  This is why Russian jumped out to an early lead in the space program.  Their R-7 rocket was almost completely based on the V-2 (just a whole lot bigger).  This is also why they had problems later on-since you can't simply "just make it bigger."  Had the Russian's got the German Rocket Scientists they probably would have won the "space race" but I always thought it was interesting that they wern't their main focus after the war, they were more interested in the rockets.

[Hagar]

[quote]Plastics and Velcro were both invented even before the first V2 took off as were a whole host of other inventions credited to the space race.

[JBaymore]

No matter how carefully the settlers in this brave new world are chosen, or the criteria used to choose them, I don't see basic human nature being any different anywhere that people are forced to live together & no matter how few there are of them.

Certainly a great point and unfortunately...... might just be true.

[Hagar]

[quote]

Certainly a great point and unfortunately...... might just be true.

[JBaymore]

Do you not feel that having the opinion that the earth is doomed so we might as well start making arrangements to leave is the one sure way of ensuring that this planet is condemned?

Actually, no.  I hope that when people have to eat the "reality burger, hold the ketchup" there MIGHT be some hope of fixing things.  Clearly, as long as we all believe that things are in fact very fixable.... just do it later cause I want to get mine now...... humanity won't do it.  Until it is later....and later.....and later...and later.

A wake up call is needed.  We've proven that we hit the snooze button over and over.  We need to move the alarm clock away from the bed so we can't reach it.

But no. Because the sun's going to explode in a zillion years time we have to get out now! Travel at least 34 million miles to some other stone in the solar system that doesn't support life as we know it and where we would definately be doomed should even the slightest thing go wrong.

Woodlouse, you have an interesting and consistent knack for taking a trivial comment that someone made and then drawing a "red herring" across the real subject path with grandiose language and inflamatory statements.  Sorry, but no one is talking about when the sun goes nova and never really was.  That is your own "construction".  It is a non-issue and a non-point.

You already got "called" on this exact issue earlier in the thread.  

While it is possible that someday humanity might discover FTL travel...... it is clearly in the realm of science fiction at this point iin time.  So any discussion of traveling such distances NOW or anytime soon is not dealing with reality very well.  if we are getting off planet.... it will be in our own solar system.  Ideal...no.  Possible ....yes.  It MIGHT have a fighting chance.

That is how space travel differs from submarine travel.

Tell that stuff to all the folks that have died in submarine and diving accidents.  Deep sea exploration is very dangerous and difficult too.  We are not adapted to live there.  We discussed that earlier in the thread.  

Population shouldn't be a problem on this planet. People are starving not because the planet can't produce enough food for them, but because the food doesn't get distributed to everyone. And the more people there are on the planet the more food gets produced and the better farming methods get etc.

Wow.  May I suggest that you spend some time researching the population subject a bit.  I started getting concerned in the late 60's. Start with the three basic laws of thermodynamics... and work your way up (or down) from there.  (There is a conncetion.  ;))

On a narrow scale...... you are absolutely correct about the current distribution issues.  But I don't think so about about the rest.  Have you been to Asia?  I have.  There area a LOT of people already on this ball of rock.

A lot of folks far more astute and learned than you and I have a LOT to say on this subject.....and I think the consensus is relatively clear from what I have seen published.  But I won't argue the point.

Got some references for the "world population is not and won't be an issue" subject that I can read up on.  I could use a dose of optimism.


best,

..................john

[JBaymore]

To sum all this up I would go further than the title of this topic. Not only was the Shuttle a mistake but so was the complete space program since the last man went to the Moon.

Hagar,

Hum.

[JBaymore]

His crimes were overlooked by the US government & he went on to develop the manned space program there, thus achieving his dream & becoming a national hero in the process. While this might be difficult to accept, it's true & truth often hurts.

Will + Richie,

I was there for a lot of it.

[Hagar]

[quote]Hagar,

Hum.

[Katahu]

WOW!!!

This has become one long topic. We should take a break guys. We've been posting too many times. Take some leave.