Fighter Armour

[ozzy72]

I've just been doing some reading, mainly on the armaments of all the different Fighter aircraft in WWII.
I did however come across a section devoted to the different types and amounts of armour used and when it was introduced.

I wasn't too surprised to find that the Polikalov I-16 was the first fighter to have armour, albeit a single 8mm (5/16") plate behind the pilots headrest.

But to my utter surprise I learnt that all the Hurricanes and Spitfires that took part in the Battle of France (May - June '40), and this included basically the entire compliment in the RAF, had absolutely no armour at all.

Armour was hurriedly fitted (after a few lessons were learnt, I imagine) before the BoB got under way about a month or six weeks after the fall of France.

A very fortunate 6 week break for RAF pilots, I dare say.  ;D

[Ivan]

Il-2 was a flying collection of armour plating... the armour wasn't fitted afterwards, but included by design.

[HawkerTempest5]

[quote]But to my utter surprise I learnt that all the Hurricanes and Spitfires that took part in the Battle of France (May - June '40), and this included basically the entire compliment in the RAF, had absolutely no armour at all.

Armour was hurriedly fitted (after a few lessons were learnt, I imagine) before the BoB got under way about a month or six weeks after the fall of France.

A very fortunate 6 week break for RAF pilots, I dare say.

[Hagar]

Ah, this reminds me. Wandering off-topic again. LOL

I remember we were discussing the canopy of the prototype Spitfire some time ago. I took this photo of the replica prototype at the Tangmere musem specially for my old pal Brensec. It was built from original drawings under the supervision of Jeffrey Quill, Supermarine's chief test pilot throughout WWII. I'm told it's an accurate representation of the actual aircraft.



Here's their tribute to R.J. Mitchell.

[ozzy72]

Lovely shots Doug, you could have let me know you had them! I haven't managed to crawl to Tangmere yet And yes she is v.accurate. The paint was taken from a model painted with the same paint they did the K5054 that belonged to Gordon Mitchell (RJs son).
For more info check http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/k5054.html
With the Hurris and Spits not having armour, well the story goes that some US pilots who joined the RAF insisted on having some bolted behind their seats as an unofficial modification, and it seemed to work rather well, as the American pilots kept getting home.
As for the armoured windscreens, the head of Fighter Command (I can't remember his name at the min.) was arguing with the Air Ministry that they needed them, and the pencil necks were saying "Its too expensive", so his parting shot was "If its good enough for Chicago gangsters, its good enough for my pilots". Needless to say he got his way. Thank goodness

Ozzy

[Hagar]

Lovely shots Doug, you could have let me know you had them! I haven't managed to crawl to Tangmere yet

Oops, sorry. I didn't think with all your Spitfire resources you would be interested. I only took those pics recently. Been waiting for a chance to post them.

As for the armoured windscreens, the head of Fighter Command (I can't remember his name at the min.) was arguing with the Air Ministry that they needed them, and the pencil necks were saying "Its too expensive", so his parting shot was "If its good enough for Chicago gangsters, its good enough for my pilots". Needless to say he got his way. Thank goodness

I think that would have been Air Chief Marshall Hugh "Stuffy" Dowding.

[Woodlouse2002]

I think in hendon there is a windscreen taken from a spitfire with a bullet in it. The remarkable thing about it is that the bullet came from behind...

[ozzy72]

Dowding
I'll go and beat myself around the head with a baseball bat now in the inane hope of knocking some sense in

Thanks
Mark

PS.

Oops, sorry. I didn't think with all your Spitfire resources you would be interested. I only took those pics recently. Been waiting for a chance to post them.

Doug we need to talk.....

[HawkerTempest5]

What a beautiful aircraft. Thanks for posting those photos Hagar pal.

[ozzy72]

The info I have Hawk, says that the installation of the armour (the first lot prior to BoB), cost 10 klm per hour in speed (6.25 MPH). Not alot to sacrifice if you ask me.

Yes, Hawk, the Japanese didn't install much (if any) armour plating at all. This was to maintain the huge manoeuvering advantage they had over all planes prior to the early '40's. They were extremely light and lower powered in comparison to their adversaries, but their ability to just 'slip' out of the way up, down or sideways gave them the advantage until the proper tactics were adopted by the Americans in the Pacific (and in China).

Their exclusion of self sealing tanks also cost many planes and pilots. A fatal calculation on their part.
I honsetly think they were just far too cocky and self-superior, after their 'hollow' victories in China and Manchuria, defeating ill equipped, untrained armies and air corps.  ;D

[Hagar]

If anyone was caught napping it was the RAF with their outdated ideas & tactics. The post-WWI RAF was more like a gentleman's club. The leaders forgot the lessons learned in WWI so the pilots had to learn them all over again - rapidly. NCO pilots were not allowed to fraternise with the officers they fought alongside so did not take part in the latest discussions on tactics in the mess. Utter stupidity.

As Ozzy points out, Dowding had to use threats & all his powers of persuasion to get armour fitted to give some protection to his "boys". It amazes me that we got away with it in the BoB.

PS. Dowding was never forgiven for his attitude to the pen-pushers & higher authority in general. Soon after the BoB had been won he was told his services were no longer required. He was sent to the USA to serve in the Ministry of Aircraft Production. What a waste. This great man retired from the RAF in 1942.

[ozzy72]

Alas Doug we did indeed pay a v.heavy price in blood because of a few jessies in White Hall who knew nothing about aerial combat, and didn't give a mokeys about a young mans life over the importance of saving a few shillings for the ministry! Oh how things haven't changed

Mark

[Hagar]

Oh how things haven't changed ::)

I'm not surprised. Unfortunately this is how Britain usually thanks its heroes. I could name many similar examples.

Read this. http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/news/news_gen2.html
A sign of the times which makes me ashamed of my country. I'm sure this is not what those guys were fighting for.

[ozzy72]

That is simply disgraceful. Britain was always rated as only second to Japan in the way it treated its war dead. But it seems we're the world leader in being shoddy to our veterans who risked their lives for us
I'm ashamed to be British

Ozzy

[Smoke2much]

[quote]A 91-YEAR-OLD war hero who has suffered two strokes was left lying on the floor of his Cookham Dean home after paramedics told him they did not have the correct equipment to lift him.
Air Marshall Sir Patrick Dunn, who relies on a walking frame and a wheelchair, fell to the floor as his wife Lady Diana, 90, was helping him into his chair.
Lady Dunn called the emergency services as she was unable to lift her husband, but told the operator he did not need hospital treatment.
She said two paramedics later arrived, but said they needed specialist equipment to pick up Sir Patrick as regulations prevented them lifting him themselves.
Lady Dunn said: