Aussie made F86??

[ozzy72]

I didn't know that we made our own version. It had a couple of upgrades. Both of which solved the 'shortcomings' that most consider made the F86 slightly inferior to the MiG15.

I got this off Mike Stone's write up for his new plane. The Ca 27 - as it was called. (real simple folk we are - all the planes made by us were a CA (then the next number up). I think the P51's we made were Ca 14's or something.

Commonwealth CA-27 Sabre
The Australian military was so impressed with the capabilities of the F-86 that they built their own version under contract. The CA-27 as it was known, was similar to its American cousin with the exception of two major upgrades. The Australians chose to install the more powerful Rolls Royce Avon engine and they replaced the 6 fifty caliber machine guns with a pair of 30mm auto-cannons.

Pretty nifty, eh  ;D

[Hagar]

This is not unusual. The F-86 was manufactured or assembled under licence in many countries including Canada (Canadair Sabre -

[Felix/FFDS]

Funny - the "CA" aircraft were built by "Commonwealth Aircraft and I understand that the the  numerical designation generally was the contract block, rather than specific aircraft designator, so that you have the Wirraway CA-1, -3, -5, -7, -8, Boomerang CA-12, -13, -14, 19  ...  Mustang CA-17/18


[quote]I didn't know that we made our own version. It had a couple of upgrades. Both of which solved the 'shortcomings' that most consider made the F86 slightly inferior to the MiG15.

I got this off Mike Stone's write up for his new plane. The Ca 27 - as it was called. (real simple folk we are - all the planes made by us were a CA (then the next number up). I think the P51's we made were Ca 14's or something.


Pretty nifty, eh

[ozzy72]

I knew Australia had them, but not Canada. You learn something amazing every day from Hagar. Cheers Doug

Mark

[Hagar]

You're welcome Ozzy. My head is full of the useless information I've been cramming in there for something like 50 years. I see something in a thread like this that jogs my memory. I also learn a lot more from you guys to add for future reference if I can find room for it.

[Professor Brensec]

Very interesting, thanks Hagar.

As you say, more info to cram into the brain for future reference.....lol

This bit is interesting to me, in that it confirms what I was alluding to.

Perhaps the ultimate Sabre was the version built under license in Australia by the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation. It is generally conceded to have been the best of the numerous variants of the Sabre.

I didn't realise we made the engines here either. Very clever!  ;)

Felix, you're right about the model numbers. I remeber the CAC 'Ultimate Prop Plane' the Ca-15, of which only 1 was made, and then scrapped (tragic), was the progression from the 'Australian designed' planes like the Boomerang.
As you said, the Mustangs had higher numbers. Thanks.

[Hagar]

This bit is interesting to me, in that it confirms what I was alluding to.

I think it depends who you ask. National pride comes into this, as always, & opinions vary. I've read that the Canadair Sabre 6 with the Orenda 14 was the ultimate version. The point being they were both more powerful than the original. (General Electric J-47 turbojet of 5,200 lbs thrust. )

The Sabre 6 with its extra power and slatted wings was the finest version of the aircraft to be built. It served with the distinction in many air forces around the world into the 1970's, though it stood down in Canada in 1968. http://www.warplane.com/pages/aircraft_sabre.html

I didn't realise we made the engines here either. Very clever!  ;)

This would have been the Rolls Royce Avon - as fitted to the Hawker Hunter, DH Comet & various other 50's jets. The Avon is still giving reliable service today as a stationary power source. I had an idea it also powered the RAF versions of the Canadair Sabres but could be wrong on this point. RAF aircraft are usually fitted with British built engines. The Avon was already being built under licence in Australia under a previous agreement.

CAC was licenced to build Rolls-Royce Avon jet engines for new RAAF bombers, restoring them to their role as suppliers of military aircraft and components...............

CAC was commissioned to build Sabres under licence, as they had done with the Mustangs. The Sabre engines, however, were in short supply. The obvious course was to install an Avon (already in production at CAC) into the RAAF Sabres. This move eliminated the bottleneck and dramatically enhanced performance-into the supersonic range. The Avon-Sabre (as it became known) is widely regarded as the best aircraft ever produced in Australia. http://www.kepl.com.au/MAAC/Wackett.HTML

[Professor Brensec]

That's what I meant about Australia making the Engines.

I didn't know we made RR engines of any kind.

A quick reference to the Orenda you mention used in the Canadian version @ 5200 lbs. the Avon is rated at 5400lbs (I think that's what I read).

But, after all is said and done, basically the two 'complaints', if you could call them that, about the Sabre (especially when comparing it to the Mig 15, regardless of whether it's historians, pilots or enthusiasts), the two only recurring aspects are the power (which influenced speed and climb rate - where the Mig out did the Sabre) and the powerful cannon on the MiG being more efficient than the 6 x .50's on the Sabre.
It seems that these two so called 'short comings' were addressed by both Australia and Canada (and who knows who else).

[Hagar]

That's what I meant about Australia making the Engines.

I didn't know we made RR engines of any kind.

A quick reference to the Orenda you mention used in the Canadian version @ 5200 lbs. the Avon is rated at 5400lbs (I think that's what I read).

Rolls-Royce Avon RA.3 Mk 1: 6,500 lb (28.9 kN) thrust. http://www.shanaberger.com/engines/avon.htm
Avro Canada Orenda 14 turbojet, 7,275 lb (3,300 kg) static thrust engine. http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/Eng/collection/sd027e.htm

But, after all is said and done, basically the two 'complaints', if you could call them that, about the Sabre (especially when comparing it to the Mig 15, regardless of whether it's historians, pilots or enthusiasts), the two only recurring aspects are the power (which influenced speed and climb rate - where the Mig out did the Sabre) and the powerful cannon on the MiG being more efficient than the 6 x .50's on the Sabre.
It seems that these two so called 'short comings' were addressed by both Australia and Canada (and who knows who else).

The MiG vs Sabre argument has been going on for 50 years & could easily last for several more. LOL
Don't forget that these "improved" versions were a later development & benefitted from the latest technology. The F-86 had already been in production for some years (first delivered to USAF in February 1949) & was being replaced by other types in the mid-50s. Jet engine development was in its infancy at the time it was in service with the USAF.

[Professor Brensec]

I concede on all points.

I don't know where I got the idea of the engine thrust figures. Obviously out of a cornflakes packet...........lol

I know about the veracity of the debate in some quarters. It's as bad as the Spitfire versus Hurricane debate we have every other month...........lol

[Hagar]

The way I see it, you can't stop progress for the sake of sentiment. Many unwanted prototypes were destroyed at that time without a second thought, along with the 1,000s of perfectly serviceable (sometimes brand new) military aircraft surplus to requirements at the end of WWII. (I've read about surplus naval aircraft being dumped at sea by simply pushing them over the side.) I could quote so many examples of abandoned prototypes, one being the Supermarine Spiteful. http://www.military.cz/british/air/war/fighter/spiteful/spiteful_en.htm Direct descendant of the Spitfire, its fate was sealed by the new jets before it was ready for service. Things moved fast in those exciting times. The Spiteful wings were used for the Attacker, Supermarine's first (& not too successful) venture into jet aircraft.

I could be wrong but always looked on the CA-15 as being strongly influenced by, if not a natural development of, the P-51D, much the same as with the Avon Sabre. The P-51D was also built under licence by CAC.

The decision to manufacture Mustangs in Australia had already been made in 1944; the first Australian C.A.C.-built CA-17 Mustang, based on the P-51D, flew in May 1945.
The CAC Mustang was built in four main variants, all based on the P-51D. These were the CA-17 Mk.20; the CA-18 Mk.22 (for tactical reconnaissance); the CA-18 Mk.21; and CA-18 Mk.23, with a Rolls-Royce, rather than the Packard-built, Merlin engine.

To me, the CA-15 never had the classic lines of the P-51. Not being Aussie, I find it interesting but naturally don't have the same affection for it as you. The Hawker Sea Fury was always my ideal as the ultimate piston-engined fighter, a true thoroughbred.  ;)

[Professor Brensec]

Yes, definitely the Sea Fury was a wonderfully powerful aircraft (we lost one in Duxford last week I think?).

The Ca-15 does have a P51 look about it, but remember it was originally to have the new  Pratt & Whitney R2800 fitted at about 2500 hp. They put the Griffon in because Pratt couldn't meet delivery for the proto-type.

With teh P&W fitted (which was never made - but there is a Sim version in the stable somewhere) it looks far less like a P51 than the one with the Griffon.  ;D

I've actually downloaded the P&W version and it's very fast and powerful but very slow, unresponsive handling. It's almost like it has a permanent case of 'compressibility'..............lol.......in level flight.
But it comes with heaps of 50 cal and 20 mm ammo (I think for guns in each cal.).  ;D

[Hagar]

Yes, definitely the Sea Fury was a wonderfully powerful aircraft (we lost one in Duxford last week I think?).

It was a Fairey Firefly that was lost at Duxford. Not in the same class as the Sea Fury but even rarer.

[quote]
The Ca-15 does have a P51 look about it, but remember it was originally to have the new

[Professor Brensec]

Ahh, a Firefly, I remember now. i knew it was Navy anyway.

As you said the P&W version of the CA15 is a very different looking plane. I think, at least the front end, looks a bit reminiscent of the Jug, but that's just me.
Of Course the wings and most other parts are a very different shape altogether. There's just something about it that brings the P47 to mind.

[Hagar]

I was also going to mention the Jug. I think that's due to the similar engine cowling. I've only seen the thumbnail in the CFS2 section. Maybe it's the particular markings that reminds me of a Sea Fury.