Battle of Britain

[Scorpiоn]

Just saw the movie last week, although I do have a question a far as accuracy goes.  In one scene, a flight of He-111's has gone off course and the formation leader (I think) decides to ditch the ordnance and return to base, inadvertantly dropping the bombs on London.  Britain bombs Germany, and Hitler says if Britain drops 200 bombs on us, then we will drop 2,000 bombs on London!  Was this correct?

[Craig.]

i believe that the BoB was started by an accidental bombing but dont know if it was a plane off course like that though, others will know

[Tequila Sunrise]

This event didn't trigger the battle, but it did lose it for the Germans. The whole battle was a prelude to the invasion of Britain that was postponed indefinatly after the battle. Whe the RAF retaliated Hitler ordered the bombing of Brittish cities diverting his forces from attaks on Fighter Command. The repite allowed Fighter Command to recover and rebuild its forces and repel the attacks forcing the Germans to resort to night bombing.

[Oz]

...Hitler's decision was the end result of an accident. On the night of Aug. 25 a single german bomber headed for the oil facilities in the Thames estuary strayed off course and dropped its bombs on a London suburb

And yes CrazyCraig is correct it did not trigger the entire battle it simply initiated a new phase in the battle

[Scorpiоn]

First off, lets assume that had Germany kept bombing British airfields, they would have attained air superiority in Britain.  Would it be safe to say that that one mistake lost the Battle of Britain for Germany?

PS: My question was geared towards the skewing of strategy in the Battle, not the start of it.  Sorry if I mislead (obviously I did ).

[Craig.]

i doubt it lost them the battle of britain, but i know it didnt help them at all

[Hagar]

I'm not sure the film account is strictly accurate. The date given for the "accidental" bombing of London is often quoted as 23/24 August 1940. Here's the daily report for 24th August posted on the RAF official BoB site. http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/august24.html
There is no mention of London in the report for the previous day.

From what I've read the basic facts are true. Bombs were definitely dropped on London & the RAF did retaliate with a small raid on Berlin. The Luftwaffe switched the main attack to London on the 7th September. This is usually regarded as the turning point of the BoB.

[Oz]

Would it be safe to say that that one mistake lost the Battle of Britain for Germany?

Yes. As Hagar stated this was apparently the turning point of the battle. Just think about it; The RAF was basically on its last legs. its airfields were badly damaged, radar and other instalations damaged or destroyed as well. If Germany had continued to bomb these airfields and installations instead of diverting all the strength into bombing cities the RAF would have been completely cripled and an invasion of britain could have occured in a matter of weeks. But this didnt happen and while bombs fell on the cities, the airfields and aircraft were repaired.

[Iroquois]

Speaking of WW2 movies, there's a movie about Hitler and the rise of Nazism and WW2 on CBS this Sunday.

[ozzy72]

The debate so far has been interesting on the BoB/Operation Sealion front. I read a good book recently on this (translated from German to Hungarian), and it appears that the pilots who did this were courtmarshalled and sent to prison for murder?! However it did make a significant difference for the RAF.
As for the counter raid on Berlin, I believe this was done by Mosquitos and the bombs fell as Herman Goering was holding a Lufftwafte Rally in the Olympic stadium and proclaiming that no British bombs would land on Germany (at least that is how the legend goes, I don't know if this is true or not, but I suspect it is, fate has a great sense of humour).

Ozzy

[Hagar]

As for the counter raid on Berlin, I believe this was done by Mosquitos and the bombs fell as Herman Goering was holding a Lufftwafte Rally in the Olympic stadium and proclaiming that no British bombs would land on Germany (at least that is how the legend goes, I don't know if this is true or not, but I suspect it is, fate has a great sense of humour).

Ozzy

The Mosquito didn't fly until November 25, 1940 Ozzy. I think it more likely to have been Whitleys & or Wellingtons. This would have been a token raid ordered by Churchill himself. Goering had boasted that no enemy aircraft would ever drop a bomb on Berlin. From what I've read it did little, if any, damage.

PS. While it's a classic & extremely well made the "Battle of Britain" has much to answer for. As with any drama documentary, the film's version of events is often confused with the real facts & quoted as being the truth.

[Professor Brensec]

A discussion and particular reference to this incident was included in a good deal of a recent thread in which a number of us where considering the possible outcomes of the war if Britain had been invaded after Germany had won the BoB.
(Don't recall the thread, but it was pretty recent - maybe someone can direct us?).

Anyway, with regard to the incident, I have seen a couple of Doco's and read the odd account, and it would seem that a "single" He111 crew did get lost on the date mentioned (my info isthe evening of the 23rd August). The aircraft commander (pilot) panicked and ditched his bombs ACCIDENTALLY over London.

The British should have realised that a single plane load of bombs dropped on an insignificant part of London (although not insignificant to the people who lived there), did not constitute a "raid" as such and was probably a mistake.
But for whatever reason, the British retaliated with a "purposeful" raid on Berlin ("You can call me Herman") and Hitler got so incensed that he directed the Luftwaffe to change there targetting to English cities, especially London.

This took the pressure off Fighter Command who had been suffering daily attacks on airfields and factories and yes, they were on their "last legs".

Incidentally, Oz, the Germans never really considered the "Chain Holme" system a viable or necessary target. They did attack with JU87's in reasonable force on one occasion, and there were a couple of further "half hearted" attempts, but very little damage was ever done to the system. it always worked well enough to serve it's purpose and (to my knowledge) was never in danger of collapse.

However, as you point out, the RAF were in very serious danger of collapse and this one single incident did (albeit unintentionally) change the focus of the battle to bombing of the cities rather than destruction of the RAF.
Apparently Hitler (and maybe others) considered it possible to "demoralise" the British to the point of suing for peace. This, at least, is a common view among historians when asked about the "ineffective" nature of this bombing of cities of no real strategic military value.

Incidentally, given the climate in Germany and the manner with which Hitler and his mob dealt with failure and negligence, you might be forgiven for thinking that the responsible crew were shot (or something similar).
I have heard that they all actually survived the war. Primarily because they were never allowed near an aircraft again

[Hagar]

I'm still not convinced it was an accident. This is from the official daily report for 24/25 August from my previous link.

By night
Enemy activity was on a widespread and continuous scale over Southern and Western England, South Wales, the Midlands, East Anglia and Yorkshire.

London Central was under 'Red' warning for nearly two hours, and the City of London, Millwall, Tottenham, Islington, Enfield, Hampton, Kingston and Watford were attacked.

Birmingham was visited continuously for over four hours and there were repeated raids in the Devon, Bristol, Gloucester and South Wales areas.

Raids were also reported in the Liverpool, Sheffield, Bradford, Hull and Middlesborough districts, and in Kent, Hampshire, Reading, Oxford and East Anglian districts.

Minelaying is suspected off the Lancashire coast, in the Channel off Lyme Bay and Weymouth, and extensively off the Thames Estuary, East Anglia, the North Foreland and Flamborough Head.

Enemy aircraft also attacked Newcastle and the London area received a second visit.

It is reported that one He111 was destroyed by fighter action +1 probable.

Hardly a single lost pilot dropping his bombs by accident. The token retaliatory raid on Berlin took place on the following night 25/26th August. This is the danger caused by those doc-dramas I referred to. People remember the film rather than the facts & it goes into legend as the truth.

[Professor Brensec]

Thanks for the quote mate.

But are any of those places mentioned in the report, in London. I'm not familiar with a suburb that may be in London and hence would constitute "more activity"........lol.

As you say. Much legend does become fact. And my friends the History Channel are not immuned, by any stretch.
I do know though, that Hitler had expressly forbidden any attacks on London "proper" except on his orders, so where does this fact (if it is one).....lol fit in?

I do honestly think it was a mistake. It certainly makes for a more "mysterious and random" course for one of the single most significant events during the air battle.  ;D

[Hagar]

But are any of those places mentioned in the report, in London.

You couldn't get closer than the City of London which is regarded as the heart of the city.
My knowledge of London is a little hazy but I'm sure Millwall is in the "East End" which took most of the punishment during the Blitz. It's all London.

I do honestly think it was a mistake. It certainly makes for a more "mysterious and random" course for one of the single most significant events during the air battle.

I've read some accounts that this was an official decision, taken by the Luftwaffe top brass although possibly not authorised by Hitler himself. Due to heavy losses the Luftwaffe were going over to night operations, much like the RAF in the later part of the conflict.

PS. It's not impossible that this was done deliberately to force Hitler's hand. It wouldn't be the first time in history this has been done & won't be the last. It was common practice for RAF Bomber Command to make small token raids in retaliation for the bombing of British towns & cities. The Luftwaffe generals would surely realise that even a small raid on London would provoke Churchill enough to attack Berlin. They would also know the likely effect this would have on Hitler. It would be easy enough to use a bomber crew as scapegoats & fix their court marshal for a prison sentence instead of firing squad.