Violisation of our community...

[Tweek]

I have to agree with what Brett has said so far. Sure, you can blame your video games, and your violent TV programmes, but all in all, it comes down to how people are dealt with nowadays...

Go to a year 10 (I'm not sure what grade that is in the USA, say aged 14/15) classroom of 2006. The chances are, you're always gonna get kids pratting about, and generally not giving a s**t about their education. This of couse, leads to them generally being a nuisance, and inhibiting the learning of others.

But what can a teacher do, nowadays? Shout at them? Send them out of the class? Fair enough, you may have shut them up for a few minutes, or you may have got rid of them for a lesson, but low and behold, when they come back, they're gonna act in exactly the same way. It's simply a lack of respect. The kids are not afraid of the consequences, therefore they will continue to do whatever the hell they like. I'm sure they'd be afraid of the consequences if these teachers were allowed to use the cane again...

On the same note, prison is no deterrant for a persistant criminal. The chances are, they have no real quality of life anyway, so prison is just another place that they can whittle away a few more years of their life. You need to find something that will actually punish them, rather than just restrict them.


I would bore you with all my knowledge about the matter from Media Studies, but the basic message would be:

There has never been a single, proven case, where a crime has been committed by someone, that has been directly influenced by the media.*

*At least by anyone mature enough, or free from mental illness, anyway!

[Brett_Henderson]

May I remind you that Omag is talking specifically about the situation in Belgium. While the so-called decline in moral standards could be considered a global problem this is not necessarily the case where he is. From my observations the general education standards in mainland Europe are superior to those in the UK & US. I dont think this is directly related to the increase in violent behaviour on our streets.

I know.. and I'm sorry for drifting off topic, and I agree about mainland Europe (have good friends from Germany).

It's not related, nor a cause and effect.. just a symptom. It's all about parenting.. and like Rotty says, "society". Poor parents raise poor parents. Since parents and parents to be.. pretty much cover the whole population, a downward spiral is hard to pull out of.

It's not a relative thing either.. Like each generation frowns upon the next's decline.. It's now kinda like technology in reverse. We went lord knows how many hundred years where a horse and wheel were state of the art transportation. We went from that.. to a space shuttle, in pretty much one man's lifetime

[H]

Two things I don't quite agree with:

1. I know.. and I'm sorry for drifting off topic...
2. It's not related, nor a cause and effect.. just a symptom.

Belgium is affected by the rest of the world, including the U.S. The U.S. is also affected by the world, especially since so much of the rest of the world has continually become part of it (it would be quite different now -- and, unlike some would think, not always so peaceful -- if left in the hands of Native Americans). More than one of us has admitted the effects of media but not as an all-out excuse.
How often does a child try to justify their want because, "well, they got one.." The same sort of thing happens when someone does something wrong -- looking at someone else to justify what one does (self-justification doesn't end with childhood; then, I've hitherto mentioned that, outside of the physical, I don't believe there's a such a thing as adulthood). As similar as we all are, we have individualized, organic brains: we don't always think the same, act or react the same. One thing may come naturally to one person and take emmense training for the next. This is true for tweek's underline, "It's simply a lack of respect." Consequences are not even thought about when it's a person's natural trait to have concern for others (unfortunately, many think this is giving others what they want rather than what they need); other's need a 'trigger' to instill that concern. In today's society, that may mean a pill .

[Brett_Henderson]

I'm not quite sure, but I think you just agreed with me while trying not to agree..

[Ivan]

(Ok 'major' dutch events here... southern neighbours probably know what im talking about)

One of the problems is that the people who are now yelling about respect (for authorities or whatever) are the same ones that made a mess of the Beatrix / Claus wedding in the 1980s... and some are still proud of it. So much for an example

Antwerp has its fair share of problems (won't go too deep on that one as it can be a touchy subject) which would have surfaced anyway. Only thing I hope is that this whole shooting case has a positive effect...

News programs show more & more graphic violence as you already pointed out. This is often broadcast at times when young children will be watching which is completely unacceptable. IMHO

Probably you know 'Kijkwijzer' (for non dutchies: the dutch age rating system fior TV). The most absurd thing about it is that RTL4 (commercial) ALWAYS places the minimum 6, violence and one or two others on the screen before they start their 19:00 news.
The 'big' news (20:00 one) doesn't seem to have to comply to these rules for some reason. And if they say 'these images may be shocking' it's usually stuff that makes you really want to close your eyes untill it's over.

[H]

I'm not quite sure, but I think you just agreed with me while trying not to agree..

I put "quite" in bold type for a reason; you had spoken from a U.S. perspective but your statements were still pertinent, even to Belgium, thus not truly off topic. Neither is it necessarily just the symptom. Individual accounts involve inviduals so there are truly shades of gray. As a generalisation it may be as Hagar said, however, not directly related.

It's that nice "cop out"  grey area that's at the root of these problems. There is a line of adulthood once crossed, the rules change. Saying, "there is no adulthood" is an excuse made into itself.. not unlike the excuses you point to.
Accountability and respect (mostly self).. This stuff starts with parenting (which means preparing your children for adulthood,  'cause it's real)..

Now we've hit the major crux where, to reverse the outlook, adulthood is an excuse. Yes, the rules are changed -- at an arguably arbitrarily determined age -- so that you can legally do things that you couldn't, and shouldn't, do before; so often those are things you still shouldn't be doing but you can do them now because "you're an adult!" I think you know how well "Do what I say, not what I do" actually works. My statement, "there is no adulthood," is not intended as an excuse (like most anything else, it can be used as one). We all have different thoughts about what certain thing is/isn't 'responsible' behaviour and some people are, actually being polite, daft their entire lives.

[Brett_Henderson]

I "think" I understand your point (I'm a little slow) and I'm not trying to be argumentative.. This margin for error that you refer to is valid.. to a point. That's the crux to it all from my point of view. When in doubt, draw a line. You have to draw lines. Once you open up Pandora's box of ambiguity, things go downhill. I know that that can end up being unfair to some. There's no way to accomodate, pacify, satisfy and justify everybody. Some catch a break.. some get screwed.. that's life. The trouble these days is when that line gets moved, blurred, twisted and over-interpreted; whether it be public education, or parental discipline or standards of behavior.

I got into an editorial-page debate, years ago, with someone proclaiming the evils of competition as it applies to our children. He was obviously of the school (no pun intented) of outcome based education; no grades; social promotion and even no score-keeping in gym class.. as to avoid damaging the kiddies self-esteem.

I know these are complicated issues, but my own version of line-drawing still falls squarely on the parents. I could be wrong.

[H]

You and I have not been in actual disagreement, Bret -- I'm just being more 'technical'.
Two people can stand on the same spot. One uses a telescope, the other a microscope; both can focus clearly but never see what the other sees. On a similar note, one can stand on the line drawn but, unless they're a freak of nature with a dozen or so eyes equally placed around their head, their view to one side or the other of the line is limited. As you stated, "There's no way to accomodate, pacify, satisfy and justify everybody." That line drawn you speak of becomes the lid of the box. Some leave it be, some will only peek in, some open it by the latch and others unscrew the blasted hinges.

[Katahu]

You and I have not been in actual disagreement, Bret -- I'm just being more 'technical'.
Two people can stand on the same spot. One uses a telescope, the other a microscope; both can focus clearly but never see what the other sees. On a similar note, one can stand on the line drawn but, unless they're a freak of nature with a dozen or so eyes equally placed around their head, their view to one side or the other of the line is limited. As you stated, "There's no way to accomodate, pacify, satisfy and justify everybody." That line drawn you speak of becomes the lid of the box. Some leave it be, some will only peek in, some open it by the latch and others unscrew the blasted hinges.

1. The one who uses the telescope can see the big picture but can never see the little details.

2. The one with the microscope can see the little details but can never see the big picture.

3. Those who never open Pandora's box are wise.

4. Those who only peek into the box are just curious.

5. Those who open it by the latch need to learn to read the warning signs before doing anything.

6. Those who open the box by unscrewing the lid need to see a doctor. *Katahu puts on his latex gloves*

[Brett_Henderson]

Egad !.. ummm, Hey Doc...

[H]

...Plenty of blame to go around, but it always cycles back to the parents

...or the lack of them. Illiterate parents have always been around and absent parents have always never been around; the latter seems more prevelant than ever, leaving society to be the parent (or the local mob). Then you have the many parents who think (most of these would not accept the designation but act the part) that the school system is the parent.

[Brett_Henderson]

That gets into the chicken/egg ..  cart/horse  theory.

Do we have more illiterate and absentee (responsibility-wise, not physical.. that's a whole different issue/problem) parents because the lines got blurred ? Or did the lines get blurred because of said parents ?

I think there are enough literate, caring parents to have kept the schools in line.. if they did their jobs AS parents.  These goofy standards in schooling now, apply to all students.. Just like better standards would/did. The practice of just moving kids along from grade to grade should never have been allowed. Even the kids with detached parents would benefit from schools living up to their end of the deal.

If you believe that giving a student a diploma  he can't read is better than having him flunk/drop out of school .. Then you're sanctioning schools as baby-sitters.  

"At least he was IN school for 12 years" ?

I know it's easier to point out problems than offer solutions. I'm guilty of that.

[Hagar]

I'm the first to criticise what the politicians & education "experts" have done to our education system. When I was at school we were told that England had the best education system in the world & I believe that was true. If this was so then why did they need to experiment with it & risk ruining the futures of a whole generation of children, and their children?

However, I'm not sure what bearing this has on the topic. Bad parents have been around since the year dot as unfortunately many children are unwanted & unloved. My daughter & son-in-law both came through the revised state education system very well. Both have Honours degrees in their chosen subjects & both have been very successful in their careers. I'm extremely proud of them & hope that their daughter, my granddaughter, will continue the tradition.

[TacitBlue]

The direction that this discussion has taken reminded me of a news story I heard a few months ago. Appearently students in the state of Missouri had some of the lowest test scores in the nation. The solution seems simple right? Get more effective teaching methodes? WRONG. They lowered the test standards so that those same scores that were unacceptable would now look good. :-/

That's like saying "my house is on fire, but I've just decided that I like flames and charcole, so I don't have to call the fire department".

[Katahu]

That's like saying "my house is on fire, but I've just decided that I like flames and charcole, so I don't have to call the fire department".

Jeb Bush who is the Govenor of Florida had one time decided to raise the score requirements of the FCAT several years ago but was heavily critisized as being "too strict with standards". Honestly I would have slapped anyone who said that because my view of the FCAT is that it was "too dang simple" since it requires very little effort to pass.

They lowered the test standards so that those same scores that were unacceptable would now look good.

Why are they doing this? Simple: It's all about the money. The Board of Education decided that it's cheaper to lower the standards so that kids can pass with a "D" rather than to hire better teachers who could have helped kids get at least a "B". :-/

I won't be surprised if the passing requirements begin to resemble the dark ages. :-/

Heck, the Ancient Romans were smarter than us modern humans and yet their technology was limited at the time. It's a sad world out their. :-/