Fewer of the Few...

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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby Hagar » Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:13 am

A point of interest possibly not mentioned in the documentary. Ray Holmes shared the kill of the Do 17 with Alfred Keith 'Skeets' Ogilvie of 609 Squadron who gave a different account of the incident. http://members.lycos.co.uk/ErnieBurton/Pilots/Ogilvie_Alfred_Keith
It's possible that Ray Holmes' sacrifice was not necessary.

Alfred Keith Ogilvie
Battle of Britain Pilot with 609 Squadron

On September 15th, now celebrated as Battle of Britain day, he shared in the downing of the famous Dornier Do17 which crashed on Victoria Railway Station. At about 1215 hours the Squadron was ordered South-East where over Kenley it waded into a formation of Do17s from KG76. During the melee that followed he launched his attack on Dornier F1+FH, wr.no.2361. Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe, the pilot of the Dornier, and two of his crew were killed but two other crew members succeeded in baling out and were captured. Oglivie's proof was photographic for his 16mm cine-camera, mounted in the wings like the eight.303 guns and synchronized with them, recorded a film showing an almost wingless Dornier fuselage in one part of the sky and its tail unit in another. Though he too modestly admitted that he was not the only attacker - and in fact Sergeant Holmes of 504 Squadron ,who ended up by rolling off a Chelsea roof into a dustbin after baling out, claimed the final victory.


Ogilvie later filed the following Combat Report

"We were ordered to attack a large formation of Dornier 17, 215's with a heavy Me109 escort. In getting in position I saw a lone Dornier seperated from his formation. I went for it and gave it several bursts from the beam. The fire was returned. Two other Spitfires also attacked, and on my next attack I could see fire in the Dornier's cockpit. As I went beneath it I saw two men jump and their parachutes open.

The whole disintegration being a most amazing and terrifying sight. The enemy aircraft spun and broke in half, and dropped somewhere around Battersea.

On orders from base I returned alone and pancaked."


Ogilvie baled out over France on July 4th, 1941 after being attacked by a Me 109. He was captured & spent 9 months in hospital before being sent to Stalag Luft III. He later took part in the famous "Great Escape" & was actually the last to get free before the tunnel was discovered.
Ogilvie was captured after two days and sent to a Gestapo prison at Gorlitz in Czechoslovakia. There during repeated interrogations "I stuck to my story that I was a career officer. This must have registered with the Teutonic mind, because I was one of eight returned to camp - the others, as you know, were shot"

In April 1945 he was liberated and transferred to the Royal Canadian Air Force as a Flying Control Officer. Resuming flying he joined 412 Transport Squadron before later taking command of 129 Acceptance and Ferry Flight upon his promotion to Squadron Leader. He was later appointed to air operations as a Staff Officer and finally operations officer at Downsview Base.

He retired from the RCAF on September 14th 1962 and returned to Ottawa where he lived until passing away in 1998.


PS. I haven't seen it for a long time but I read somewhere that actual footage of the Do 17 crashing was used in the film "Reach for the Sky". I don't know if this was from the newsreel film or Ogilvie's gun-camera - or both.
Last edited by Hagar on Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby C » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:01 pm

There are very famous photos (stills from a cine film I expect) taken from a mile or so away showing the Dornier with outer wing and tail section missing about 400ft from impact in a vertical dive. I expect this is what used in the film, but I have got time to check at the mo!

Very sad news to hear of Ray Holmes passing. People like him made the UK what it was, yet now we have a soceity of idiots and ASBOs...
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby Hagar » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:33 pm

There are very famous photos (stills from a cine film I expect) taken from a mile or so away showing the Dornier with outer wing and tail section missing about 400ft from impact in a vertical dive. I expect this is what used in the film, but I have got time to check at the mo!

I posted one on Page 1 of this thread. ;)

Very sad news to hear of Ray Holmes passing. People like him made the UK what it was, yet now we have a soceity of idiots and ASBOs...

Indeed but there are still plenty of his calibre around, some not that far from here. :P
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby ATI_7500 » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:35 pm

The Dornier pilot died in hospital. Eye witnesses who are still alive saw him come down on the Oval. Doris Jieves said, "They were pulling at his parachute because they were after the silk to make things with. They were shouting 'Lynch him! Lynch him!'"  


Quite disturbing....I think I'll stay away from the Uk in future...
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby C » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:37 pm

I posted one on Page 1 of this thread. ;)


DOH! I've been using Opera with images turned off as I'm still on dial up at the new house! Hence one missed it! Sorry! :)

Indeed but there are still plenty of his calibre around, some not that far from here. :P
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Sorry, been looking at the Daily Mail in the Mess to much at lunchtimes!
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby Hagar » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:56 pm

Quite disturbing....I think I'll stay away from the Uk in future...

Don't worry Bjorn. From the other report she got her facts wrong anyway as the pilot, Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe, and two of his crew were killed during the combat & didn't get out. I'm sure RAF bomber crews experienced the same, if not worse, if they baled out over Germany during a raid. Quite understandable in the circumstances.

It's been over for a long time now & not all crews were treated like that. I met a German bomber pilot last year & he was pleasantly surprised at his welcome. You might have seen my shots in the Photos forum.
Last edited by Hagar on Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby ozzy72 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:00 am

I've got Reach For The Sky on DVD Doug, I'll check it later on when I finish watching Battle of Britain (started that last night whilst the missus was using the PC, v.relaxing) ;)
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Re: Fewer of the Few...

Postby Felix/FFDS » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:43 am

Update - Ray Holmes funeral is tomorrow, July 6th.

I hope some mention is made in the news media.
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