AIR GUNNERS--THE UNSUNG HEROES--(must read)

[Threadkiller]

[quote]
"I wished to be a pilot,

[BFMF]

yep, it seems they have for the most part been forgotten. Nevertheless, they're still heroes in my book

[ozzy72]

Nice poem, and a little bit of long overdue recognition.

Ozzy

[Tequila Sunrise]

just thinking, what was the record number of kills acheived by an air gunner?

[Threadkiller]

just thinking, what was the record number of kills acheived by an air gunner?

not sure in WWI but in korea they were the second highest socring after the F-86 aces

[Smoke2much]

just thinking, what was the record number of kills acheived by an air gunner?

Do you mean claimed, confirmed or actual kills?  During one raid by the 8th airforce in july 1944 gunners claimed, and were awarded 40 kills.  Luftwaffe records for that day show that no aircraft were actually shot down!

The gunners war must have been awful.  They were the lowest paid men in the crew and sat or stood for hours in freezing conditions searching the skies for the enemy.  If captured they were kept in far worse conditions than their commisioned colleagues and were far more likely to be wounded.

Will

[Threadkiller]

ouch! that's not fear, they did as much as the pilots......

[BFMF]

[quote]During one raid by the 8th airforce in july 1944 gunners claimed, and were awarded 40 kills.

[Professor Brensec]

[quote]

Do you mean claimed, confirmed or actual kills?

[Smoke2much]

ouch! that's not fear, they did as much as the pilots......

I believe you may have misunderstood me.  I have nothing but respect for the Air gunners of all the combatant nations of WW2.

My point was simply that there is a huge discrepancy in the number of kills claimed and the number of fighters shot down.  The raid I'm referring to was one of the worst days of the eigth airforce.  A lot of bombers were lost and 100's of men killed.  It is almost impossible during air-to-air combat to be sure whether a plane has been damaged, destroyed or has got away damage free.

In addition no single gunner could be sure that the kill was his, therefore 5 waist gunners, three tail gunners and two ball turret gunners could all be awarded credit for the same kill.  If in reality this "kil"l had simply been damaged and forced to retire from combat 10 kills would be awarded to a squadron for the net loss of no planes to the luftwaffe.

This was and is a problam in all theatres of war and on all sides.  Luftwaffe pilots often claimed, and were awarded a kill if they believed that they had caused enough damage to a bomber to make its crashing inevitable.  There are many accounts of B-17's and B-24's beimg claimed in this was.

To close I intended no respect whatsoever to the veterans and those who were lost in combat operations during WW2, it was a comment on statistical fact, not personal bravery.

Will

[Professor Brensec]

I'm inclined to agree with Smoke'.

In the environment that all this took place, where a gunner would only see a fighter for a fleeting moment, even if he was sure he hit it, how could he know it was a fatal or even a "decisive" hit. And again, to agree with Smoke', how could a gunner know he was the one who did make the killing blow.

In my opinion, there really isn't much chance of a gunner actually being able to positively confirm a kill at all. But then, if I was going through what they went through, I would be prone to some "wishful thinking" too.  ;D