Holding Pattern in-lieu of Procedure Turn

[snippyfsxer]

Once I complete my pattern entry and am established on the inbound course towards the holding fix, I'm not actually expected to go around the holding pattern, right?

Another question, related only because it deals with HPs:

[C]

Once I complete my pattern entry and am established on the inbound course towards the holding fix, I'm not actually expected to go around the holding pattern, right?

Only if you are asked to, or want/need too. If not you can call that you're inbound for the procedure.

[quote]Another question, related only because it deals with HPs:

[Brett_Henderson]

Terminology is important here...

[aeroart]

A holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn is exactly that: you fly the holding pattern, and as long as you've been cleared for the approach, you continue inbound from the final approach fix to the runway.

Holding patterns used this way are specified because there is higher terrain in the area where you would be making a procedure turn.

The complete story is probably in the Aeronautical Information Manual. You can find it in PDF format at www.faa.gov, where you can print the parts you need at no cost.

Art

[olderndirt]

If they want to you to hold, you'll be issued a clearance specifying anything nonstandard plus an 'expect further clearance' or 'expect approach clearance' time.

[Brett_Henderson]

There are MANY different approaches.. and I've been flying them for years... so nothing would surprise me.. But I can't remember one (sim or real life), where a holding pattern would be used that way. Procedure turns are used mostly to orient yourself when there is no distance reference. Like.. for an NDB appraoch where the NDB is at the airport. When you come flying in AT the NDB, you have no distance reference.. other than reaching it, and then timing yourself outbound (so you have a rough idea how long the inbound/descending leg will be).

A hold as a means to avoid terrain would be redundant. So long as you arrived AT that fix at a safe, published altitude, what point would there be to flying in a circle ?

Are you talking about a hold-like pattern for losing altitude ? That would BE a procedure turn..

[Brett_Henderson]

I found a good discussion about it..  Here's a key excerpt from the following link:

[quote]Aero-tip of the day: A holding pattern-style course reversal is simply a technique to line up on the approach course while remaining relatively close to the depicted fix. If you

[aeroart]

The holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn is a way of getting you down from an altitude which is too high to leave the final approach fix inbound, while keeping you away from higher terrain near the edges of the 10-mile radius area around the final approach fix. You can fly the inbound leg while descending on the glide slope, and hopefully you will remember to check the altitude at which you cross the fix to make sure you're not below the altitude shown on the approach chart.

Call it what you will, a holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn replaces the 45-degree, teardrop, 90/270, or whatever other procedure turns you can come up with.

Art

[Brett_Henderson]

The holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn is a way of getting you down from an altitude which is too high to leave the final approach fix inbound, while keeping you away from higher terrain near the edges of the 10-mile radius area around the final approach fix. You can fly the inbound leg while descending on the glide slope, and hopefully you will remember to check the altitude at which you cross the fix to make sure you're not below the altitude shown on the approach chart.

Call it what you will, a holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn replaces the 45-degree, teardrop, 90/270, or whatever other procedure turns you can come up with.

Art

Now you're really confusing me. Where did a glide-slope come from ? That, by definition takes care of altitude.

The MSA will take care of your altitude inside of 10nm.. Then, if you choose (key word).. to put yourself in a position to need to use the hold for losing altitude, it's your call.. not required.

If you need to use the hold for course-reversal, you have to abide by standard hold rules, which pretty much amounts to a course reversal, at your discretion, so long as you stay in the protected area.

I'm not trying to be nit-picky.. just referencing the original poster's question about if he HAD to fly the hold.

[aeroart]

Didn't mean to confuse anyone. Here's what the Feds say in the Aeronautical Information Manual:

"5. A holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn may be specified for course reversal in some procedures. In such cases, the holding pattern is established over an intermediate fix or a final approach fix. The holding pattern distance or time specified in the profile view must be observed. For a hold-in-lieu-of-PT, the holding pattern should be flown as depicted, to include leg length or timing. Maximum holding airspeed limitations as set forth for all holding patterns apply. The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry. If cleared for the approach prior to returning to the holding fix, and the aircraft is at the prescribed altitude, additional circuits of the holding pattern are not necessary nor expected by ATC. If pilots elect to make additional circuits to lose excessive altitude or to become better established on course, it is their responsibility to so advise ATC upon receipt of their approach clearance."

The AIM and lots of other FAA pubs are available online at www.faa.gov. Load up your printer and print the PDF files of whichever portions you need -- free!

Art

[Brett_Henderson]

Yeah.. I read that before my last post..