Sim Flight Training: Short-Field Take-off Video!

[Mobius]

Hey everyone.  I've put together a short video that follows Brett's short-field take-off tutorial HERE.  I've uploaded it to youtube, SimTeeVee, and as a download, so take your pick.

Downloadable Version (Highest Quality - 25.5 MB)

SimTeeVee Version (Medium Quality - Streamed)

Youtube Version (lowest quality -  Streamed)

Please post any questions or comments and we will answer them as best we can.

Thanks.


Next up: climbs, descents, turns, stalls, and steep turns.


Note: For the Cessna 172 (and only the 172):  Vx = ~60 kias  and  Vy = ~75 kias

[C]

Nicely done. Like the format.

[Brett_Henderson]

That video shows the technique (right down to a good view of the ASI), very well indeed. I can feel the ground dropping away smartly, nailed on Vx. Very impressive work  :)

[Fozzer]

...any chance of indicating the total File Size in each download..?

Downloading Sim V's files doesn't ever indicate the total file size for some strange reason using the standard Windows downloader, so I had to cancel the download, part way through, for fear that it may exceed my Service Provider's total download allowance for the month... ...!

Paul.......!

[Mobius]

Sure thing Paul, the downloadable version is 25.5MB, and the youtube and SimTeeVee version are just streamed right off the website.


Thanks for the comments guys.  I'm really enjoying this.  It's fun to fly, but it's a whole other level of fun to teach other people to fly.

[beaky]

That's a great idea... and well done.
Only criticism I have is: I was taught to retract flaps and then trim for Vy, as the nose is coming down anyway when you pull the flaps. Makes it real easy to establish Vy, and no surprises.

If you establish Vy and then retract flaps, you'll have to pick the nose up again, in most airplanes.

Not a big deal, either way is "correct", I guess... just a thought.

[Brett_Henderson]

That's a great idea... and well done.
Only criticism I have is: I was taught to retract flaps and then trim for Vy, as the nose is coming down anyway when you pull the flaps. Makes it real easy to establish Vy, and no surprises.

If you establish Vy and then retract flaps, you'll have to pick the nose up again, in most airplanes.

Not a big deal, either way is "correct", I guess... just a thought.

Thoughts are good.. they lead to discussion

[beaky]

Again, I've probably described it wrong:
Brett is right- if you pull the flaps up at Vx and do nothing else, you'll sink some. But what I usually do is sort of mix it together; "flaps up/transition Vy" is sort of the same action for me.
The way it was explained to me is that it's good to do both: retract flaps and work with the pitch change to immediately transition to Vy.I have found that the plane will ask for "back trim" right away as you pull the flaps up, a moment before it starts sinking in any positive way; if you're working the pitch consciously at that moment, anticipating it, you'll get near Vy before you really sink much.

I've never noticed any undue loss of altitude doing it that way... but I have done it the other way more than once (as in going to put flaps down on downwind and realizing I never retracted them- LOL!!).

But unlike a go-around, where you may have full flaps down when you initiate the climb, we're talking about retracting flaps from 10 degrees to zero (short-field takeoff), which is not a dramatic change in most aircraft.

[Brett_Henderson]

It all gets confusing.. and a lot of the blame can be given to Cessna. I'm pretty sure that the POH's reason for no flaps at all; is the same reason practicing short-field takeoffs has some perils of its own. A plane at Vx is already vulnerable if the engine quits. A plane at Vx with flaps deployed is in REAL trouble if the engine quits. If you ever flew with my mentor, and weren't at Vy within seconds after rotation... you're gonna get scolded..

[AA]

I just got done reading the thread that this video was based on and rather than resurrecting that thread from the dead, I thought I would just post my piece here.

I don't know if this comes from my training being exclusively in Pipers or not, but the procedure that I learned for short and even soft field landings are a little different from the procedures discussed in this Sim Flight Training series.

First of all, the short field procedure here is the same that I learned up until rotation. I was taught to rotate at the normal rotation speed (50 to 55 KIAS in a PA28-161) and establish an attitude that would produce Vx (about 10-15 degrees) without staying in ground effect. Then, maintain Vx until clearing the 50 ft. obstacle. After clearing the obstacle, establish and climb out at Vy.

The procedure here is more similar to the soft field procedure that I learned except for a couple of key differences:
1) Hold full up elevator for the entire procedure to keep the weight off of the nose wheel and on the mains (that is until leveling off in ground effect), and
2) Keep the aircraft rolling while lining up on the runway to avoid getting stuck

I don't know if this difference is just because I learned in Pipers or if it's because the flight school that I learned through is crazy.

I really apologize if I have completely confused anyone, but I thought the differences between what I learned and what yall have been discussing were "puzzling" for lack of a better term.

Maybe I should just go back to my Piper corner and let all you Cessna fliers out there do whatever you want to.

[Mobius]

No, feel free to discuss and argue with us, that's why we're here.

The idea behind lifting off as soon as possible is to try to decrease drag.  You have a substantial amount of drag due to the wheels rolling along the ground, so if you can lift off as soon as possible, you can accelerate faster and get away from the ground and obstacles faster than if you stayed on the runway.  Then, because you lifted off at a slower speed than you can normally fly at (or want to fly at), you want to stay in ground-effect to allow yourself to accelerate to the normal climb-out speeds (Vx for distance, Vy for time).

The idea behind staying in ground effect is that in ground effect, there is less lift-induced drag because the ground disrupts the wing-tip vorticies.  This means that you get the same lift for less drag.  The problem is, once you get out of ground effect, there's a rather nasty increase in drag.  So, if you take-off as soon as you can and climb out, you'll be able to lift off the runway, but at 20 or 30 ft off the ground, you'll come out of ground effect with too little speed and the aircraft will stall, then you know the rest...

[Brett_Henderson]

By all means, dig the threads up. I plan on bumping them all up soon, anyway. Kind of like a review, since all 7 are done.

Your question is kind of mentioned in that thread... Mainly the soft-field aspect of the short-field takeoff, as I've taught it. I'll quote myself, though Mobius has done a good job of explaining the theory. What we have to remember is that manufacturer ideas have lawsuits in mind. As I mentioned in this thread.. the Cessna POH goes as far as NOT suggesting even flap deployment.

[AA]

[quote]Remember when you were training, and possibly going back and forth between Warriors and Skyhawks ? Remember what happens when you try to land a Warrior like a Skyhawk ?

[DinnyD]

Congrats to all on an outstanding thread. Very valuable to a novice like myself.

[Mobius]

Congrats to all on an outstanding thread. Very valuable to a novice like myself.

Glad it helped.  I was working on a landing video, but that got temporarily put on hold while I sort out a few things, but I should be able to get back to it one of these days.