Soon-to-be pilot-in-training has a question

[martianfrogz]

If you have your PPL but not your Instrument Rating, is it OK to use VORs for navigation during VFR? (i.e. VFR conditions, 225 nm flight, but would like to go VOR to VOR)

[Mobius]

You can use whatever you want, VOR, ADF, GPS, LORAN (;D), whatever there is out there, just as long as you don't fly into the clouds.  When I learned, I was taught how to use VORs as my main radio navigation tool, in conjunction with Pilotage and Dead-reckoning.  We would usually plan cross country flights with three legs, and use each form of navigation on each leg, but would focus on one form more-so on one leg than another.  I also had to learn to navigate with NDBs and the ADF, but I never actually used it to navigate, we only used it to listen to AM radio.  Also, when I learned, there were no GPS systems installed in any of the aircraft, but since then, the airport I fly out of has bought a "newer" C172 and they installed a nice Garmin GPS/Radio stack and it's pretty fun to play around with, and it would probably be very helpful in cross-country flying, but I've never done a cross-country flight in it.  You can bet that you won't be forced to not use something that could make your flight safer and easier.

Good luck with your training.

[martianfrogz]

listening to AM radio with the ADF? I'll keep that in mind... Thanks for the answer and the good luck...probably start around next year in lessons when I turn 16. By the way, could you explain LORAN to me?

[Mobius]

Don't worry about LORAN, it's an old form of navigation for aircraft and boats, but it's really never used anymore, at least in aviation I don't think.  There's a bit about it in the AIM, and that's all I've really read about it, and I don't even know what kind of instrumentation you would need to recieve the signals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

P.S.  If you're interested in starting early, you can start lessons at age 15, so you can solo on your 16th birthday, and get your license on you 17th, just if your interested.

[martianfrogz]

Thanks for the LORAN info. I think if I started NOW, I could just make it and solo on my 16th...in 4 months...but I doubt that's gonna happen (starting now). 2 1/2 years ago I took an "introductory" flight, "introductory" because we got into stalls and steep turns and such due to my Flight Sim experience and the instructor said I was a natural pilot...and...I haven't been in the real air for close to 2 years.... ya know, so, now I'm dying to get back in a Cessna.

[martianfrogz]

How exactly DO the VASI and PAPI lights work? (i.e.- How do they change color in regards to glideslope?)

[Mobius]

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but different colored light, usually red and white light is projected at different angles so when you're too high you see only white light, and when you're too low, you see only red light, and when you're on a 3 degree glideslope, you see both red and white lights.  The main difference between FS and the real world is in the real world, the lights don't instantly change like they do in FS, so you'll often see a mix of red and white lights, which makes it look like one light is pink, which is kind of strange.  Here's a little diagram of how the light is projected, and if you are near an airport in the fog, you can sometimes see something similar to the diagram from the light reflecting off the fog.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASI

[martianfrogz]

that's kinda what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure....you are a great help! By the way, what licenses do you have?

[Mobius]

Only my private right now, but once I get the $$$ I'm hoping to get my instrument rating, or if the Air Force will let me fly I'll be getting it through them.

[beaky]

Short answer: yes. Long answer:

You will learn instrument navigation procedures while working on your private ticket, including some time "under the hood"- that is, with some sort of vision-limiting device on your head so you cannot see outside.


It's fun, especially doing "unusual attitude recovery" when the CFI upsets the airplane somewhat and you have to recover on instruments alone. Well, I enjoy it, anyway...

Once you get your PPL, you are even allowed to fly "under the hood", with another licensed pilot aboard, but YOU MAY NOT FILE IFR.

Prior to that, you will very likely learn how to use VORs, GPS, etc as you learn basic navigation: navaids and even ILS are there for all pilots to use, not just instrument-rated pilots on IFR plans. You MUST know how to go from A to B with chart, compass and clock alone, but man, those navaids sure come in handy, for planning and executing your flight, and also for getting "found" when you are , shall we say, "positionally uncertain".

[martianfrogz]

one word...WOW . Lots of information there, but it all makes sense. Thanks! I'll try to swing by or get my dad to swing by the airport on his way to work and get copies of the books.

[Mobius]

You can usually find the FAR/AIMs at any bookstore (I got my 2006 copy at Barnes and Noble), and you can get most any reading material you would need from here...http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/?trackingId=701.

[flaminghotsauce]

You can bet that you won't be forced to not use something that could make your flight safer and easier.

Not necessarily true. I was not allowed to do my commercial cross country time building flights in one aircraft- the one that had the GPS. Even though I promised not to turn it on. It was all old fashioned navigation during this time. "NO GPS" was the school rule. It was my favorite aircraft, though, and I always wanted to fly it. It was a '64 Cessna, with the 6 cylinder up front. It was heavier than the rest of the fleet, and I had a good relationship with the old man. We landed well together. IFR ticket in that ship.

I had a blast using VORs to triangulate. I would even figure a position to begin my descent using them, for fun. I still do this with my charts when flying the slower aircraft on FS. It would be just as easy to use DME or the GPS for distance info, but what fun is that?

[beaky]

Flaminghotsauce is right...
When you think about it, early dependence on GPS can , in fact, make you less safe, because you'll be at a loss if it goes belly-up.
The reason I'm such a cranky old curmudgeon about emphasizing "chart, compass, and clock" as well as good old-fashioned "look out the window" navigation is because those things are far less likely to fail than even the simplest GPS or any ground-based navaid.

It worries me that new students starting in GPS-equipped aircraft are gazing longingly at it while their instructors are trying to explain how to navigate withoutit... they're thinking "who needs all that mumbo-jumbo when I have the Magic Box here?"
They're forgetting that the Magic Box will become a paperweight in the event of an electrical failure or if the uplink is lost, whereas the wet compass, the chart, and your wristwatch will still be there for you.

GPS is a fantastic, wonderful innovation... but it must be considered icing on the cake, whereas the basic VFR navigation skills must be thoroughly baked, from scratch, first (stupid analogy, but you see my point).

And expanding on that notion: until they do away with all the NDBs, I advise all pilots  to learn how to use them. They're very handy sometimes, and not just for listening to the radio...

[BFMF]

After a friend of mine crashed the trainer I primarily flew, I finished the last half of my PPL training in an aircraft that had a GPS. Although my instructor showed me how to use it,  she had me occasionally use it as a backup tool. Whenever I did any cross country flights, I really never used it to navigate from point to point. Sometimes after calculating my groundspeed, we would check to see what the GPS said, but other than that, I never used it much.